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Think this thread will run till September? God I hope not.

 

There's a lot of focus on the vote but the real debates will start post then. Regardless of the outcome how Scotland is governed is going to change come 2016...so you might have to put up with this for another two years at least :)

 

By then we'll have a Labour government in Westminster and a Tory government in Scotland :)

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There's a lot of focus on the vote but the real debates will start post then. Regardless of the outcome how Scotland is governed is going to change come 2016...so you might have to put up with this for another two years at least :)

 

By then we'll have a Labour government in Westminster and a Tory government in Scotland :)

 

I've been thinking one of the interesting paradox's of all this is that if Scotland gained independence it would lurch more to the right of politics. Here's my theory, please tell me if it's crap:

 

Many people have the sense that conservatives by their nature entrench the "in" group...where privilege exists they try and retain this privilege. I reckon this would stop many Scottish people voting conservative because they see the privileged "in" group as southern english and feel conservatives wouldn't speak absolutely fairly for them. If Scotland gained independence their national politics could normalise somewhat as both sides, left and right, could be seen as fully representing Scottish interests.

 

Of course this theory was cooked up from the outside looking in and may be all rubbish :)

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I've been thinking one of the interesting paradox's of all this is that if Scotland gained independence it would lurch more to the right of politics. Here's my theory, please tell me if it's crap:

 

Many people have the sense that conservatives by their nature entrench the "in" group...where privilege exists they try and retain this privilege. I reckon this would stop many Scottish people voting conservative because they see the privileged "in" group as southern english and feel conservatives wouldn't speak absolutely fairly for them. If Scotland gained independence their national politics could normalise somewhat as both sides, left and right, could be seen as fully representing Scottish interests.

 

Of course this theory was cooked up from the outside looking in and may be all rubbish :)

 

I think there is something to commend this approach. Currently there is an us v them mentality, and anything which reeks of SE English entitlement is going to be opposed. What I find - well, interesting - is that this debate is possibly the single biggest political event in Scotland since the NHS debates post-war. I am amazed at how mindless, how careless, how ignorant people can be faced with making a decision on their futures the likes of which were last available pre-Jacobite times. In an age of almost instant information, many are more informed about the nightly TV programs or the latest gossip about football players than they are about their own national and personal interests - education, health, wealth, banking, natural resources, international relationships. The irony is that, as a result of that inertia, a large part of the population will get what it deserves - whatever the outcome, yes or no!


There is nothing more important than that you be happy.

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I think there is something to commend this approach. Currently there is an us v them mentality, and anything which reeks of SE English entitlement is going to be opposed. What I find - well, interesting - is that this debate is possibly the single biggest political event in Scotland since the NHS debates post-war. I am amazed at how mindless, how careless, how ignorant people can be faced with making a decision on their futures the likes of which were last available pre-Jacobite times. In an age of almost instant information, many are more informed about the nightly TV programs or the latest gossip about football players than they are about their own national and personal interests - education, health, wealth, banking, natural resources, international relationships. The irony is that, as a result of that inertia, a large part of the population will get what it deserves - whatever the outcome, yes or no!

 

Whilst my comment was tongue in cheek I agree - a vote for independence is not a vote for an SNP government in Scotland and a shift to the right is quite plausible. Although I am English, I am Northern English and therefore share with the Scots an 'us v them' mentality - it's why I was never happy living in the SE.

 

I have friends on both sides of the debate and I think there is a big concern amongst the 'no' voters that a vote for the status quo won't get people to the polling station, especially when the opinion polls are showing more support for a 'no' vote. I think the Australian mandatory voting should be introduced in the UK (or Scotland!!)

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I think there is something to commend this approach. Currently there is an us v them mentality, and anything which reeks of SE English entitlement is going to be opposed. What I find - well, interesting - is that this debate is possibly the single biggest political event in Scotland since the NHS debates post-war. I am amazed at how mindless, how careless, how ignorant people can be faced with making a decision on their futures the likes of which were last available pre-Jacobite times. In an age of almost instant information, many are more informed about the nightly TV programs or the latest gossip about football players than they are about their own national and personal interests - education, health, wealth, banking, natural resources, international relationships. The irony is that, as a result of that inertia, a large part of the population will get what it deserves - whatever the outcome, yes or no!

 

I do actually agree with most of that - it's ridiculous how little I know about it and just politics in general when it's such a big deal

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Whilst my comment was tongue in cheek I agree - a vote for independence is not a vote for an SNP government in Scotland and a shift to the right is quite plausible. Although I am English, I am Northern English and therefore share with the Scots an 'us v them' mentality - it's why I was never happy living in the SE.

 

I have friends on both sides of the debate and I think there is a big concern amongst the 'no' voters that a vote for the status quo won't get people to the polling station, especially when the opinion polls are showing more support for a 'no' vote. I think the Australian mandatory voting should be introduced in the UK (or Scotland!!)

 

I have lived in the south east all my life and whilst generalisations are a bit lazy I can understand the antipathy towards this part of the country. There is clearly a different attitude to life with many here that prevails and it is one that makes it in general feel much less of a community. Work and possessions are more important than community and friendships I feel, to our detriment.

 

I don't think though that Scots will feel any more Scottish if they are independent and my suspicion is always that little really changes for most people whoever governs. It will be a major upheaval to manage the separation of two countries with repercussions that may not all be predictable. There really should be strong reasons to vote yes either because the political link with the rest of the UK is intolerable (it may be for some) or the economic benefits are palpable (again, maybe) for either the citizens or the country.

 

I suspect that if Scotland voted Yes then Salmond would continue to blame Westminster for the mess they inherited (as successive UK governments do when they take over) but in time that would have less and less credence. Then everyone could reflect on what has been gained or lost.

 

I am agnostic on the debate but interested in it and the outcome.


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I do actually agree with most of that - it's ridiculous how little I know about it and just politics in general when it's such a big deal

 

Don't think you are on your own Stacey. My son says "you're getting old" when I have the news programs on. Strangely enough I was the same at his age, only cared about what affected me directly. If Scottish Independence meant that the price of a pint would fall by 10 pence I would have been the first one at the polling station.

 

Maybe they should run on that promise.:wink:

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For the last few weeks I have been looking into all the facts and figures to the best of my ability and if I was able to vote it would be a YES.

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I have friends on both sides of the debate and I think there is a big concern amongst the 'no' voters that a vote for the status quo won't get people to the polling station, especially when the opinion polls are showing more support for a 'no' vote. I think the Australian mandatory voting should be introduced in the UK (or Scotland!!)

 

So agree with the status quo issue.The Nationalists have been working on a yes vote since devolution, it's the only thing that interests them and they put a lot of effort into it. They will make sure their canvassing returns are accurate and they will make sure their voters get to the polling booths.

 

30 % of the undecided's don't vote, 30 % of the no voters don't make it to the polls and the yes campaign wins by a country mile. The turnout in 2011 was just over 50%, much lower than the overall UK turnout, so the prospect is not far fetched.

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For the last few weeks I have been looking into all the facts and figures to the best of my ability and if I was able to vote it would be a YES.

 

Interestingly I've done the same and came up with the opposite.

 

I guess at the end of the day it's a case of taking each aspect, weighting that particular aspect, scoring them, adjust for the weighting and seeing what the answer is and it will be highly individualistic as no two people will identify the issues, the weightings or the scores the same. Which means that neither side is right. Winning on the day doesn't make you right.

 

I lived through the structuring that happened in NZ post the '84 elections. I've seen what happens when it goes wrong, it's not fun, it's not fun at all. I don't think the Scots will have the appetite to do what NZ had to do.

 

One of my biggest weightings is what happens if it goes wrong. Rejoining the Union will not be an option as there would have to be a referendum in the UK (ecl Scotland) and I can't see them voting yes to the rejoining of a failed state.

 

NZ was the envy of the world with it's welfare system in the 50's/60's and 70's but by 84 it had become so close to a failed state that the government of the day was considering State bankruptcy. they managed to get themselves out of it mainly by having massive currency devaluation, something iScotland is proposing to negotiate out of the ability to do.

 

Am I saying are NZ and Scotland the same, no they are not, but the similarities are very close in terms of economy and social policy.

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The Government just said that Scotland might end up as a Third World country if they vote for independence.

 

I don't know if things will improve to that extent, but you never know.

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The Government just said that Scotland might end up as a Third World country if they vote for independence.

 

I don't know if things will improve to that extent, but you never know.

 

I'll give you a 4/10 for that one

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The Government just said that Scotland might end up as a Third World country if they vote for independence.

 

I don't know if things will improve to that extent, but you never know.

 

Will Messrs McKintosh, Stevenson and Dunlop's inventions be taken back by Scotland if that happens??:wink:

 

Cheers, Bobj.

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Will Messrs McKintosh, Stevenson and Dunlop's inventions be taken back by Scotland if that happens??:wink:

 

Cheers, Bobj.

 

hope so...:dull:

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hope so...:dull:

 

Disappointed is wot I is, simmo, thought you might have had a bit more interesting 'comeback'.:wink:

 

Cheers, Bobj.

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Disappointed is wot I is, simmo, thought you might have had a bit more interesting 'comeback'.

 

Cheers, Bobj.

 

d'ya know what bob, in tired out, working like a thing that works really hard, i just can't get motivated on here lately. not only that i have no idea who those blokes are??:wink:

is one the railway bloke? anyway they probably nicked the idead off an English man:wink:

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The Government just said that Scotland might end up as a Third World country if they vote for independence.

 

I don't know if things will improve to that extent, but you never know.

yer a ----

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The yes campaign just seem like a moody teenager whos throwing a tantrum about moving out.

 

Push comes to shove they will live above the garage and come home for dinner every night.


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The yes campaign just seem like a moody teenager whos throwing a tantrum about moving out.

 

Push comes to shove they will live above the garage and come home for dinner every night.

I think this post exemplifies exactly how the union currently works. England takes a paternalistic attitude, laying down the rules and trying to slap down Scotland if it starts to get precocious. That's why Scotland needs to "move out".

 

The No campaign, incidentally, seems to be about mendacious fearmongering without a shred of evidence to point to any benefot of maintaining the union. We have been told that Scotland would lose the pound, get kicked out of Europe, have a fortified border with England, would become bankrupt - yet we have not heard a single positive word about a future within the Union.

 

To me, the vote is a no-brainer and I cannot see why so many Scots want to continue to be English.


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The yes campaign just seem like a moody teenager whos throwing a tantrum about moving out.

 

Push comes to shove they will live above the garage and come home for dinner every night.

 

hrlm4n.jpg

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hrlm4n.jpg

 

havnt most of these been debunked already?

 

since you are living overseas, said Scottish nationalists do not believe you are worthy of a say in this

 

despite trying to pick the most favourable sample of people to decide this it seems that common sense currently has the upper hand on chippy contrarianism in the polls

 

if we do go ahead with the YES then the Basque and Catalonia separatists will get ideas, terrorism and bureaucracy will be on the rise and no one will tangibly better off.

 

India is about 40 countries should they all start milling around and dithering over who has/gets what?


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Scotland and it's people deserve the chance to have a go on its own away from the wealth vacuum that is Westminster.

 

i think you are being rather dramatic in saying that terrorism will rise if Scotland gains independence and I am not concerned as to what India or basque do. They can sort that out themselves. We live in a democracy and Scotland deserve their chance.

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if we do go ahead with the YES then the Basque and Catalonia separatists will get ideas

How dare they have ideas when they have Spain to do their thinking for them?


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How dare they have ideas when they have Spain to do their thinking for them?

 

how about texas seceding the union? the separatist feedback loop could pretty much go on forever, gotta be more important sh*t to worry about


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how about texas seceding the union? the separatist feedback loop could pretty much go on forever, gotta be more important sh*t to worry about

You're the one who seems to be worrying about it pal. If Texas wanted to be independent then it's fine by me. Recent examples of independent nations (i.e. since 1980) are:

 

South Sudan

Kosovo

Montenegro

East Timor

Palau

Eritrea

Slovakia

Serbia

Croatia

Bosnia and Hercegovina

Macedonia

Slovenia

Russia

Latvia

Lithuania

Estonia

Belarus

Moldova

Georgia

Armenia

Azerbaijan

Ukraine

Kazakhstan

Turkmenestan

Tajikistan

Uzbekistan

Kyrgyzstan

Namibia

Mictronesia

Marshall Islands

Brunei

St Kitts and Nevis

Antigua and Barbuda

Belize

Vanuatu

 

So you see the world is not stable and never has been. Using the stability argument to deny Scots their right to self-determination is specious.


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