Australia and depression

[MARYROSE02]

Mea culpa! I take it all back. I just looked at another webpage, and (anxious hypochondriac that I am), the drug companies really ARE evil! My GOD! I have been poisoning myself for the last few years.

[Guest]

As a (now ex) psychologist I blame the plethora of psychologists and the need to pathologise normal responses into something requiring medical intervention TBH. Part of it, too, is the media expectation of perfect lives (especially amongst the young who take soaps to be real lives and then get upset when their lives aren't as peachy). It starts young in Aus too with high levels of self harm and high youth suicide rates. Even among my Aus friends (as opposed to clients) the number on anti depressants/anxiety meds far and away exceeds those of my UK friends (and for some reason, they need to talk about their medications far more too!). Mental health plans in Aus are good but there are still psychs out there who are milking the gullible and keeping them coming back week after week for months on end (ethically I have huge difficulties with that!) and paying through the nose for the privilege.

 

Im not saying that mental health isn't a real issue, of course it is, but it worries me that Australian society is losing its resilience.

I'd have to agree with you here about the young people here in Australia my daughter aged 19 is on anti depressants. Out of her final year class of high school three young people have committed suicide. She has tried once herself and i know at least two others from her year have also tried. Why?? we are all at a loss they parents of all these young people did not see any of it coming. In my case my daughter seemed happy had no problems or so i thought. They hide how they really feel and they do it so well. I still don't really know why my daughter wanted to die and she clearly stated that's what she wanted. She went to a psychiatrist once and refused to go again....

[Pam W]

I would say doctors both GP and Psychiatrists heavily influenced by drug companies. Also reduction in stigma around seeking help. Defo some over prescribing too but also genuine preparedness to seek help rather than drunk drug etc etc. complex issue. I would think definitely a first world one too!

[caramac]

I would say doctors both GP and Psychiatrists heavily influenced by drug companies. Also reduction in stigma around seeking help. Defo some over prescribing too but also genuine preparedness to seek help rather than drunk drug etc etc. complex issue. I would think definitely a first world one too!

 

 

Some perhaps. In Australia there is definitely a culture of prescribing a certain drug company's product rather than the actual drug name which tends not to happen in the UK.

My husband does talks for drug companies at training sessions for other drs, but absolutely refuses to recommend, or mention except in generic terms, the drugs that company produces.

[Quoll]

Are Australians really losiing their resilience compared to similar societies? Maybe more people are diagnosed in Australia because Australia takes mental health more seriously? Maybe there is less stigma in Australia, so people are far less embarrassed to talk about taking anti-depressants? Maybe there are far more hidden cases in the UK?

 

Speaking personally, I have exactly the same problems, whether I live in the UK or Australia. It was a UK doctor who first prescribed my anti-depressants, and my Aussie doctors have continued to prescribe them. Should I stop taking them. I have asked my GP from time to time but he has recommended I keep taking them. Should I trust in his forty years of experience, or assume that he is corruptly in league with 'the evil drug companies? Then again, are anti-depressants any worse than than alcohol, tobacco, caffeine, and all the illegal drugs, with which so many people self-medicate themselves?

 

I dont think Australia takes mental health any more or less seriously than anywhere else - I do think there is a lot of misdiagnosis and, as others have said, an expectation that medication will be given regardless. A good deal of the blame certainly does sheet back to the drug companies and the influence they have on diagnosis - the DSMIV and its new big brother the DSMV have pathologised pretty much everything so that practitioners can slot a patient into a box and then give them an appropriate medication. One wonders what is normality these days!

 

In answer to another question you raised - yes, for me, the answer was to leave Australia and it was almost magical but, then, exogenous depression is like that.

[Guest Ptp113]

Wear a mask!

[Jacaranda]

One of my daughters friends,aged 26,an Australian male,committed suicide this week.I did'nt know him personally,but all the same very sad!

[Tina2]

Some times anti depressants are prescribed for other medical conditions apart from the actual illness of depression. There is an illness called I.C. ( I know as i have it) and Endep an anti depressant medication is prescribed as a sort of nerve block in my case. Maybe there are other illnesses that also use anti depressants prescribed, which would then give incorrect data in regards to how many with actual depression are taking medication.

[MARYROSE02]

There seems to be a bit of 'hearsay' around. 'I knew someone who smoked for 80 years and lived till they were 95, without a single smoking-related illness.' That sort of thing.

 

I've got a friend who believes FERVENTLY that the drug companies are evil incarnate (and doubtless controlled by 'the Illuminati') I told her that the death rate for polio dropped like a stone when those evil companies discovered a cure. It makes no difference, she said, 'they' will just find new ways to 'infect' you so they can continue to make huge profits

 

I wonder if it's possible to find some research on the differences, if any, between the experiences of the Aussie cricket team when they toured England, with the England team now touring Australia? Allowing for any difference between winning and losing, of course.

 

I mean, if Australia really is far worse than England, for inducing mental illness, would you be able to 'prove' it? There could be a good thesis there!

[flag of convenience]

There seems to be a bit of 'hearsay' around. 'I knew someone who smoked for 80 years and lived till they were 95, without a single smoking-related illness.' That sort of thing.

 

I've got a friend who believes FERVENTLY that the drug companies are evil incarnate (and doubtless controlled by 'the Illuminati') I told her that the death rate for polio dropped like a stone when those evil companies discovered a cure. It makes no difference, she said, 'they' will just find new ways to 'infect' you so they can continue to make huge profits

 

I wonder if it's possible to find some research on the differences, if any, between the experiences of the Aussie cricket team when they toured England, with the England team now touring Australia? Allowing for any difference between winning and losing, of course.

 

I mean, if Australia really is far worse than England, for inducing mental illness, would you be able to 'prove' it? There could be a good thesis there!

 

Your friend does display a degree of wisdom. The Pharma's like all business are out to make money.

[MARYROSE02]

Your friend does display a degree of wisdom. The Pharma's like all business are out to make money.

 

Of course they are, but once they discover a cure for some nasty illness, they will make one fortune selling the drugs to cure it, whilst pouring part of those profits into finding a cure for another illness. And if they discover a cure for every illness we suffer, why they will make profits out of something else. That is capitalism.

[Guest littlesarah]

Melb that is exactly my line of thinking, Irving Kirsch in my article did a Randomised control trial covering all the research ever done on anti-depressants and it shows that whilst people think that they work they are no more effective than a placebo. The drug culture in the US is huge and the drug profits are behind the majority of the research that we use as professionals. Anything that does not agree with the effectiveness is shelved and never released to the public. However, the side effects are huge the effect these drugs have on people is immense and as you say does nothing to solve their problem. I have taken anti-depressants and at the time I believed they worked however, reading the evidence I am certainly doubting whether they worked for the reason I thought they did.

 

Stories such as children on Clozapine in the US is shocking, some of the most lethal drugs for adults being given to primary school children.

 

Children with ADHD being given drugs as soon as they are diagnosed rather than other alternatives.

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/05/23/kids.overmedicated/

 

Joanna Moncrieff does an excellent overview of it all in her book 'The Myth of the Chemical Cure' a leading Psychiatrist herself from University College London. The more you look at the information we have been fed the more shocked you become.

 

I am sure you all read about the dangers of 'Prozac' well a quick research of its history shows it was only ever used as an anti-depressant because it didn't work for the reason it was created. It was only ever tested on 5 mildly depressed subjects and then advertised to the world by Eli Lilly as a 'miracle' and made $10bn in revenue for the company. Many research studies even show the link between Prozac and increased risk of suicide. In 2004 it was found in the UK's drinking water due to its over subscription, so everyone was taking it (albeit in small amounts). When Prozac started receiving bad press and effectively lost its patent Eli Lilly repackaged it as 'Cymbalta' and it was prescribed unknowingly to the public as a completely new drug despite its known side effects.

 

Now do you really trust these drug companies who prey on the unbeknown public?

 

I assume you actually meant 'systematic review' & not RCT. Those two things are very different.

 

It is most unlikely that all papers ever published on antidepressants could be included in a systematic review, because the likelihood is that they wouldn't ask meet the inclusion criteria. Any review in which all papers can be included is unlikely to have had criteria that are tight enough to allow direct comparison &/or meta-analysis.

 

Not sure what discipline your PhD is in, but in the health science area I'm in, we are expected to approach our research from a neutral standpoint & use our evidence to formulate our conclusions. I don't doubt that the over-prescription of antidepressants is a very real phenomenon, but I would guess that the reasons are numerous.

 

I'm pretty sure that there is evidence of the ability antidepressants to increase neurochemicals in those whose endogenous output is low, so within the paradigm of an understanding of depression as occurring in those with an endogenous deficit in such chemicals they have been shown to work.

 

ETA: Cymbalta is a different drug from Prozac, so to describe it as a case of 're-branding' isn't entirely accurate.

 

The metabolites of most things we usually ingest are no longer active by the time they are excreted. Tap water also contains quantities of the metabolites of female sex hormones from those women who use oral contraceptives, & no evidence has been found that that is having any effect on the population either. Perhaps you could give some references so I can read the evidence for myself?

Edited November 24, 2013 by littlesarah

[Tina2]

Of course they are, but once they discover a cure for some nasty illness, they will make one fortune selling the drugs to cure it, whilst pouring part of those profits into finding a cure for another illness. And if they discover a cure for every illness we suffer, why they will make profits out of something else. That is capitalism.

Problem is that there are "many" sick people who could be helped by drugs currently available IF they could afford them. I currently pay around $120 a month for medication, one lot is $63 a month from Chemist Warehouse, considerably more expencive from other pharmacies, the medication i "really" need is $300 a month, I and many others simply cant afford that. People comment on how wonderful it is that the Royal family are still so active in there late 80s and mid 90s, but just how much treatment and medication have they had access to that the general population could never afford ? I am in my Mid 60s and if i could access the medication i need (if i could find a job) I would be more than happy to return to work.

[stevie ellis]

 

One of my daughters friends,aged 26,an Australian male,committed suicide this week.I did'nt know him personally,but all the same very sad!

so sad that.

[Tina2]

Originally Posted by Melza

One of my daughters friends,aged 26,an Australian male,committed suicide this week.I did'nt know him personally,but all the same very sad!

 

So sorry to here that. Very sad when people feel suicide is there only option.

[jac2011]

I assume you actually meant 'systematic review' & not RCT. Those two things are very different.

 

(sorry I am typing on a weekend and with 4 children in the house wasnt entirely switched on)!

 

 

Not sure what discipline your PhD is in, but in the health science area I'm in, we are expected to approach our research from a neutral standpoint & use our evidence to formulate our conclusions. I don't doubt that the over-prescription of antidepressants is a very real phenomenon, but I would guess that the reasons are numerous.

 

(I am not doing a PHD it is my first ever literature review I am completing for my degree, I understand I need to see it from a neutral standpoint but I have also been advised to choose a topic that I am interested in and after working on an Acute Psychiatric Unit where I saw no theraeutic help being offered and patients just going through a cycle of medication until the Dr's found something that worked is the reasoning behind what I am reading).

[Guest littlesarah]

Sorry - my misunderstanding. I didn't mean to sound patronising or otherwise negative (Monday morning grumpiness). I just know from marking honours theses and working on my own research degree that it's really important to make sure that you refer to sound scientific literature and try to assume nothing. I have a bit of a personal 'thing' about the promotion of science and the illuminating of pseudoscience, which is rife when it comes to health care. (Ben Goldacre is one of my heroes - sad, I know.)

 

I hope you're enjoying the lit review process - I may be a bit weird (haha 'may' - who am I kidding?! :wacko:), but I always quite enjoy the challenge of finding the evidence and then working out what it all means. Though I seem to recall not being quite so enthused when I was an undergraduate - perhaps it was having several assignments all demanding my attention when all I wanted to do was get out there and do the clinical work!

[flag of convenience]

Of course they are, but once they discover a cure for some nasty illness, they will make one fortune selling the drugs to cure it, whilst pouring part of those profits into finding a cure for another illness. And if they discover a cure for every illness we suffer, why they will make profits out of something else. That is capitalism.

 

Capitalism is ensuring the continuation of profit not the cessation that a cure would bring. As such to maintain the status quo fits the profit concept far better .

[MARYROSE02]

I heard an interview with Professor Gavin Andrews, a prominent Sydney psychiatrist, talking to Richard Glover on ABC 702, today. They were discussing depression and he revealed a couple of interesting facts. One was that Australia is second only to Iceland in terms of prescribing medication to treat depression.

 

The second was far more interesting in the context of this thread which was posted purely to demonstrate that depression is far worse in Australia than in other comparable countries.

 

Not so, according to Professor Andrews, unless he was lying of course, for he said that other comparable Western countries have far higher rates of depression, 40 per cent more I think he said.

[MARYROSE02]

Capitalism is ensuring the continuation of profit not the cessation that a cure would bring. As such to maintain the status quo fits the profit concept far better .

 

 

So why do the drug companies bother carrying out research into cures for all the different illnesses? Far better for them to find new ways of making us sicker, presumably?

Edited November 27, 2013 by MARYROSE02

[flag of convenience]

So why do the drug companies bother carrying out research into cures for all the different illnesses? Far better for them to find new ways of making us sicker, presumably?

 

Making us sicker would obviously impact on business. While having us life dependant on medication for example to treat blood pressure, makes sound business sense. A cure takes away business.

[flag of convenience]

I heard an interview with Professor Gavin Andrews, a prominent Sydney psychiatrist, talking to Richard Glover on ABC 702, today. They were discussing depression and he revealed a couple of interesting facts. One was that Australia is second only to Iceland in terms of prescribing medication to treat depression.

 

The second was far more interesting in the context of this thread which was posted purely to demonstrate that depression is far worse in Australia than in other comparable countries.

 

Not so, according to Professor Andrews, unless he was lying of course, for he said that other comparable Western countries have far higher rates of depression, 40 per cent more I think he said.

 

Matter of interpretation as with many things. So does that suggest over medication or high rates of depression?

[MARYROSE02]

If he was telling the truth, Australia does prescribe drugs to treat depression at a higher rate than, say, the UK, but the actual proportion of the population that is depressed is lower in Australia. (Does that mean that the drugs DO work?!)

 

Actually he was talking about a very interesting programme whereby people suffering from depression or anxiety work at home on a computer programme. (Different programmes for the two conditions.) He has been carrying out a study for the past seven years, and had very good results.

[Paul1Perth]

My Mum suffers from Mental Illness and has all her life. When we were growing up she had a few "nervous breakdowns" where they had to take her away, basically knock her out with whatever drugs they used at the time and wait for a couple of weeks to see how she pulled up. A lot of the time, after a couple of weeks almost solid sleep, due to the drugs, she would be back almost normal. Usually she couldn't remember the last couple of weeks, sometimes more, before the Health Service had done something about it.

 

To get admitted she had to be really bad and just about uncontrollable. I've seen her in a padded cell, in a straight jacket, she's had electro convulsive therapy and a plethora of different drugs, some of which she didn't react to very well at all.

 

About 30 years ago they found out that lithium is an emotional stabiliser and she has been on lithium treatment ever since. She has to have regular blood tests to monitor how much is in her system as it's a poison. She got very sick at one time and nearly died, due to missing a blood test when the NHS couldn't fit her in over Christmas.

 

Over the years the acceptance of, treatment and follow up of mental illness has increased immensely. We just didn't talk about it very much when we were younger and chose not to mention it to friends, even though a lot offered to help. It's just so hard to understand that someone they felt they could probably help was so far out of it they were a different person, almost like a wild animal and unpredictable.

 

I don't think I've ever known more help, talk, awareness opportunity for treatment and early intervention than is available now. I hope it's the same in the UK as here.

 

I really believe that the numbers reflect how many people are now willing to come forward and talk about there problems, due to organisations like beyond blue. Openly advertising on TV, posters to get help if you need it. Has to raise awareness and numbers coming forward.

 

I had a 3 or 4 friends commit suicide when I was young too. As usual no-one saw it coming in any of them. Actually one did have a real rough trot when his marriage split up, he lost his house and just about everything else during the miners strike. Hung himself. Still came as a shock though.

 

I think there is a case for over diagnosis though. Young people can almost get into a state where they are talking about it too much and persuading themselves they must have it. With the internet and self diagnosis on just about everything rife, the slightest bit of extra pressure, exams, bullying, realtionship issues and I don't think people cope as well as they used to.

[flag of convenience]

If he was telling the truth, Australia does prescribe drugs to treat depression at a higher rate than, say, the UK, but the actual proportion of the population that is depressed is lower in Australia. (Does that mean that the drugs DO work?!)

 

Actually he was talking about a very interesting programme whereby people suffering from depression or anxiety work at home on a computer programme. (Different programmes for the two conditions.) He has been carrying out a study for the past seven years, and had very good results.

 

If those haven't presented, how would the eminent professor, have come to the knowledge that Australia has less mental illness than UK?

It is certainly very high in Australia and with the sudden changes en train much more likely.