flag of convenience Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 The car industry is heavily subsidised everywhere that has one. Aus just has to decide whether it wants a car industry and wear the subsidies, like the other countries do. It's up to Ford and Holden whether they invest in the plant to make it more efficient. The technology to do that has been around for years. I suspect the writing is on the wall. A low dollar(like 25% less than present which seems to be the aim) may delay the inevitable but long term doubt if there is a future Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 Where to begin. Firstly reward is not solely money is it? It is surely about security of job, pension and living in a rewarding aesthetic environment. And actually yes I can think of places depending on skill set. For example Finance would be London, New York or Hong Kong. Science and innovative areas would be USA. Depending on language ability some very good banking and educational positions in Switzerland. In fact white collar areas Australia is seldom the best. For the moment trades are raking it in but foolish to think that will remain constantly the case. Australia is competing in a very tough environment and business has a goal to lower costs rather substantially as well as increase productivity. I struggle a little to see how rates can be increased with already the workforce working some of the longest hours in the world. No wonder stress related factors are impacting on those in work. The desire of business to recruit from whatever source, free of any government interference is hardly a new concept nor with the interest of the country concerned part of the concept. Trans global corporations are but that, and sadly ever increasing in power and influence over elected government, especially those with a Conservative leaning. Talk about back to the future. Tel me the sense in allowing business to recruit direct from abroad and how skills are going to be rewarded or even gained in the first place. You may have noticed a radical rise in Tafe costs recently announced as well. Now that you bring security of job, pension and living in a rewarding aesthetic environment IMO that just puts Aus further in front than any of the places you mention. Specially Perth. Not so fussed about job security, don't think that really exists anywhere any more. Pension, I'm 60 this year and try not to think about it even now. Living in a rewarding aesthetic environment, couldn't think of anywhere better. London, New York or Hong Kong or OK to visit for a few days but couldn't live in any of them. Too many people, too much of a rat race. Switzerland, too cold. business has a goal to lower costs rather substantially as well as increase productivity That's been the case ever since I started work as a 16 year old. never changed. As for working some of the longest hours in the world, all depends on what job you're in and what you are willing to accept. I work in IT and seem to have a lot of time at home having a good time. Never work weekends, have the odd one away on work trips but not working. Had a weekend in the Gold Coast couple of weeks ago. as I didn't want to travel back from Queensland for the weekend, wouldn't have been worth it. My wife works part time in nursing and my son is 7 on 7 off FIFO. so works less than half a year for more money than I'm on. We didn't come out here to spend heaps of hours at work furthering our careers, we came out to have some fun in the sun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 Just to reinstate I am not against 457s as their original role intended. Such a system operates in many countries and is necessary to fill short term gaps in the professional market. The broadening of the use of the 457 without any consideration for the local market is where I and much of the world break ranks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petals Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 There are a number of misconceptions and prejudices which need to be challenged here. Firstly, there are some people posting on this thread, and elsewhere on the site, who appear to work on the presumption that there are (morally) superior and inferior routes for economic migration to Australia, and that in some way those who arrived by direct entry are somehow ‘better’ than people who arrived on 457s. Let’s be frank, no one migrated to Australia for Australia’s benefit - we all came for our own benefit, because we wanted to live and work here, permanently or temporarily. So all the arguments about how useful anyone is, or is not, to Australia, and how that justifies the superiority of direct entrants, is specious nonsense. Australia decides it will allow certain people with particular skills into the country through different visa routes. If you fit, great, you can come here to live and work. But because your skill is on one list or another does not make you morally or in any other way intrinsically superior. So let’s get over the ‘holier than thou’ routine. Secondly, that somehow 457 visas are a second rate way of coming into the country, because you weren’t wonderful enough to get direct entry (or as one charming entry put it, 457s are ‘too lazy’ to bother with direct entry). Even if you are fortunate enough to be on the direct entry list of skills, there are many reasons why you might initially enter the country as a 457. If you already have a job, then the 457 route is a quicker way for the employer to get you here – it also means that if you turn out to be useless, they aren’t stuck with you, and they haven’t thrown even more money on a bad hire. It may also benefit the migrant to get here sooner, and to come temporarily, since if they don’t like it, it has been less of a commitment. And of course, some migrants only want to come for a few years, or their employers only want them for a few years. Some of all of these groups of people later transfer to PR, through entirely legitimate and legal routes. They pay the same taxes, and are just as likely to work hard or slack off as any direct entrant. Thirdly, that 457s nick jobs from fair dinkum Aussies. I’ve already dealt with a lot of this above, but look at it this way. A 457 who is flipping burgers, or working for less than the market rate, is in breach of their visa – they are being exploited, or they are engaging in a rort. There are enforcement routes to deal with this, and the only argument is whether they are being properly used. On the other hand, a direct entrant is entitled to flip burgers or work for less than a local if they so choose – they are not (always) required to work in the occupation which gained them entry into the country, and they may not do so either out of choice, or because they cannot find work in their specialist field. So which is better for young or unqualified locals? You could equally argue that 457s are the better bet, since they are far less likely to be working in low skilled or low paid jobs. As someone else put it above, 457s have to do the job they came over to do (nearly always highly skilled and highly paid), whereas direct entrants can do what they like. There also appears to be a complete lack of understanding amongst some posters about how international labour markets work. There are very many skills which are transferable between countries, and in many occupations, foreign experience is a great advantage both in career progression and skills development, and to the employer. That’s why highly skilled people in many fields work in other countries – whether they are Aussies working in the UK, poms working here, or Germans working in Canada. For many skilled occupations, it isn’t a case of skill shortages, but simply a case that it benefits all parties (the employed person, the employer, and the economy of the country they work in) to have the flexibility to choose to employ someone who happens to have citizenship somewhere else. As for the people who toss around blanket accusations or insinuations that 457s are forging qualifications, using fraudulent references, not being checked properly, or just too lazy to do it the ‘proper’ way, you are clearly so full of your own moral superiority that no logic is going to get through to you. And again, why are we not concerned about forgery and fraud on other routes of entry? Why are 457s uniquely suspect? Fraud is a crime, whatever the entry route, and can be dealt with as such. And what makes so many migrants think they have the moral right to pull up the ladder after they have arrived? Generally, that is called hypocrisy. What we who post on here about these visas is irrelevant and one cannot assume that just because negative remarks are posted that they reflect what the posters themselves believe. Some post from experience with the visa. Others post because they have been on this forum a long time and seen the many problems these visas present to people when they go wrong. Then there are those of us who have been here a long time, mix freely with cross section of the community in the country and hear what people are saying and generally. So just get over it, all the platitudes in the world will not change the three minute grabs that these stories get in the paper and the perception that jobs are being taken away. If you are happy with the visa find that is great but get a thick skin about the visa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack13 Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 No the laws have been removed nothing in place to check. Bet that'll make your day.. Yes thats wicked news! :biggrin: Ah well hopefully one day if I ever need a 457 I'll get one whilst someone else lines up for the dole cue. The way I see it your on an imigration forum, I imagine a lot of people on here have come in on 457 visas. And if for whatever reason those who are on defacto visas ect have the audacity to comment against this, or just simply those whose skills meant they didnt need sponsoring, well I'd like to remind you your just as good as the net person and the next person is just as good or bad? as you. I think there's a lot of prejudice regarding immigration, at the end of the day dosen't matter who your parents are, who your married too or in relation too or where you come from and or what your skills are, everyone deserves a fair go and everyone should be treated equally. Thats my opinion. End of! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 (edited) So do you think the same about the hundreds of thousands of Eastern Europeans flooding the UK, signing on benefits and getting free housing - are they just getting a fair go. Australia makes the rules, its their country and if they dont want to let people in, its up to them! Edited November 28, 2013 by AJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack13 Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 So do you think the same about the hundreds of thousands of Eastern Europeans flooding the UK, signing on benefits and getting free housing - are they just getting a fair go. Australia makes the rules, its their country and if they dont want to let people in, its up to them! Rules are made to be broken. And at least these people are willing to work. On the other hand Australia has a lot more room for these people unlike England. When I do become a citizen of Australia, I am going to be left wing all the way. lefties want to free all borders, very cleaver people. It generates more money in the country these people need a house, food, elecenttricendon ect. The way I see it people should just do whatever the hell they like so long as it dosen't hurt anyone else... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack13 Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 All you people complaining you don't have a job because of immigrants are not going to get any sympathy of me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 Rules are made to be broken. And at least these people are willing to work. On the other hand Australia has a lot more room for these people unlike England. When I do become a citizen of Australia, I am going to be left wing all the way. lefties want to free all borders, very cleaver people. It generates more money in the country these people need a house, food, elecenttricendon ect. The way I see it people should just do whatever the hell they like so long as it dosen't hurt anyone else... Haha yup so they are, thats why they are claiming benefits - you need to engage your brain before your mouth! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack13 Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 No they ahve to have lived there for one year before they start the claim i believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 Believe what you like, I cant be bothered arguing with you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack13 Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 No don'y you know I am right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenon4017 Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 So do you think the same about the hundreds of thousands of Eastern Europeans flooding the UK, signing on benefits and getting free housing - are they just getting a fair go. Australia makes the rules, its their country and if they dont want to let people in, its up to them! Hundreds of thousands? You mean, literally, more than 200,000 Eastern Europeans getting free housing? You wouldn't have a reputable link to back up this claim, would you? Anyway, 457s don't get access to any benefits, which might explain why they make efforts to ensure they won't require them. Australia, via it's elected govt., does indeed make the rules, and live by their consequences. The LNP won the election and they were very clear that their agenda would be pro-business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 Hundreds of thousands? You mean, literally, more than 200,000 Eastern Europeans getting free housing? You wouldn't have a reputable link to back up this claim, would you? Anyway, 457s don't get access to any benefits, which might explain why they make efforts to ensure they won't require them. Australia, via it's elected govt., does indeed make the rules, and live by their consequences. The LNP won the election and they were very clear that their agenda would be pro-business. Stop trying to be smart you know very well that I dont mean every one gets free housing!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack13 Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 yer where'es your proof of that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenon4017 Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 Your original remark: >>So do you think the same about the hundreds of thousands of Eastern Europeans flooding the UK, signing on benefits and getting free housing - are they just getting a fair go. Australia makes the rules, its their country and if they dont want to let people in, its up to them! Stop trying to be smart you know very well that I dont mean every one gets free housing!! Did you mean that every one was from Eastern Europe. Or that there were hundreds of thousands? Or that they constitute a "flood". Was any of your comment a product of your own thoughts, or simply a regurgitation of last weeks Daily Mail editorial? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenon4017 Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 yer where'es your proof of that? And you need to use a spell checker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 Yes thats wicked news! :biggrin: Ah well hopefully one day if I ever need a 457 I'll get one whilst someone else lines up for the dole cue. The way I see it your on an imigration forum, I imagine a lot of people on here have come in on 457 visas. And if for whatever reason those who are on defacto visas ect have the audacity to comment against this, or just simply those whose skills meant they didnt need sponsoring, well I'd like to remind you your just as good as the net person and the next person is just as good or bad? as you. I think there's a lot of prejudice regarding immigration, at the end of the day dosen't matter who your parents are, who your married too or in relation too or where you come from and or what your skills are, everyone deserves a fair go and everyone should be treated equally. Thats my opinion. End of! You rather miss the point. Why should you get a job over a local doing the same task? Prejudice regarding immigration? Of course there is. Immigration outside of refugees is required to suit the demands of the country not vice versa. Treated equally? Are you suggesting a worker in Manchester should have the same entitlement as a local or a backpacker over here on a WHV should be able to compete on equal footing as a local? Laughable to say the least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 Now that you bring IMO that just puts Aus further in front than any of the places you mention. Specially Perth. Not so fussed about job security, don't think that really exists anywhere any more. Pension, I'm 60 this year and try not to think about it even now. Living in a rewarding aesthetic environment, couldn't think of anywhere better. London, New York or Hong Kong or OK to visit for a few days but couldn't live in any of them. Too many people, too much of a rat race. Switzerland, too cold. That's been the case ever since I started work as a 16 year old. never changed. As for working some of the longest hours in the world, all depends on what job you're in and what you are willing to accept. I work in IT and seem to have a lot of time at home having a good time. Never work weekends, have the odd one away on work trips but not working. Had a weekend in the Gold Coast couple of weeks ago. as I didn't want to travel back from Queensland for the weekend, wouldn't have been worth it. My wife works part time in nursing and my son is 7 on 7 off FIFO. so works less than half a year for more money than I'm on. We didn't come out here to spend heaps of hours at work furthering our careers, we came out to have some fun in the sun. Your response from purely from a personal level. There are far grander issues at stake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 So do you think the same about the hundreds of thousands of Eastern Europeans flooding the UK, signing on benefits and getting free housing - are they just getting a fair go. Australia makes the rules, its their country and if they dont want to let people in, its up to them! It is not so much not wanting people in. Immigration has long been the making of the nation and will continue to be so. It's different to UK. There will unlikely be floods of East Europeans, although I expect corporate and business interests will love that to be the case. No what has come into place in this country is something even more sinister. Business can sponsor with greater ease without due consideration for the local workforce labour from abroad. The repercussions could well be enormous although this being Australia, will take time. Another political party to the right, akin to Hanson's One Nation? Immigrants given a hard time? Race Relations out the window? All sorts of possibilities out there brought non by a government bending backwards to appease business interests and barely started yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 Your response from purely from a personal level. There are far grander issues at stake. I think everyone's response is from a purely personal level. That's why we get so many differing views on every subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 I think everyone's response is from a purely personal level. That's why we get so many differing views on every subject. Mine isn't as little will have a great impact on me personally. I still find it sad to see how narrow interests are shaping the nation. This includes more than 457s obviously but a major concern none the less. If we all retreat into our bolt holes and the "I'm alright Jack" syndrome, all too common these times those that be will trample us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fensaddler Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 What we who post on here about these visas is irrelevant and one cannot assume that just because negative remarks are posted that they reflect what the posters themselves believe. Some post from experience with the visa. Others post because they have been on this forum a long time and seen the many problems these visas present to people when they go wrong. Then there are those of us who have been here a long time, mix freely with cross section of the community in the country and hear what people are saying and generally. So just get over it, all the platitudes in the world will not change the three minute grabs that these stories get in the paper and the perception that jobs are being taken away. If you are happy with the visa find that is great but get a thick skin about the visa. There are a number of things in your post I’d take issue with: - It’s curious that a site moderator should say that what people post on the site is irrelevant. In a wider sense we are all as dust, but in this little universe, what we say to each other does matter. - I don’t believe you when you say that people on here put forward views that they don’t believe in. I know that trolls infest forums, but even so, I sense that most of the time, people on here say what they mean, and mean what they say, even if they are wildly misinformed and a little too blunt and sweeping in their statements. - You seem to suggest that there is a lot of misinformation or superficial reporting on this issue, but I almost get the impression you don’t think that matters. I do, and I think misinformation needs to be tackled with facts and arguments, otherwise the bullies and bigots rule. Platitudes seems an oddly dismissive word to use about what I said, however. - You seem to suggest that your longer time in Australia and your wider circle of contacts gives you a better perspective on this issue. I’d say it would be difficult to prove either way, and is probably a dubious philosophical standpoint. - I’m well aware of community opinion on this issue. I don’t agree with it, and know that a lot of community opinion is based on false information and rabble rousing. But again, I’m not about to let this go unchallenged. I didn’t move here to stop having opinions, even if they are opinions that the community doesn’t always like. I do care, very much, about some things, but I also have a good enough support network that it’s not going to get me down. You need not worry about me, though it’s nice that you do. - There are undoubtedly problems with the 457 visa, not least that some migrants arrive on them and then find they run all sorts of risks of exploitation or job loss. There are no risk free migration options, and again, I'd suggest that the view that PRs are somehow safer than 457s is I think a little misleading. Only today on the forum we have stories of the big risk for PRs through various routes, that they arrive with apparently skill shortage occupations, and then can't find work for love nor money. That's a risk 457s don't face. I think it's a bit more swings and roundabouts than it is sometimes painted - often by PRs who want to maintain their self-perception that they are the better sort of migrant. I think that's a bubble that needs popping or at least reducing a little in size. I'll bell that cat however much hissing and spitting comes my way. Have a lovely weekend on the Peninsula. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fensaddler Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 It is not so much not wanting people in. Immigration has long been the making of the nation and will continue to be so. It's different to UK. There will unlikely be floods of East Europeans, although I expect corporate and business interests will love that to be the case. No what has come into place in this country is something even more sinister. Business can sponsor with greater ease without due consideration for the local workforce labour from abroad. The repercussions could well be enormous although this being Australia, will take time. Another political party to the right, akin to Hanson's One Nation? Immigrants given a hard time? Race Relations out the window? All sorts of possibilities out there brought non by a government bending backwards to appease business interests and barely started yet. We have more in common than you think right now FoC. You're not the only person here thinking about the big picture, and just because people disagree with you doesn't mean they are acting any more our of personal self-interest than you are. I share your dislike of much that this government is intent on doing, though I don't make the 'a priori' assumption that everything they do will be wrong. I'm not sure whether you do either, to be fair. And I think I'm on your side of politics, by and large. In my world, not all companies are bad, and many understand the need to look after their staff. Maybe I'm lucky in my experience, or even naive, if you want, but not everybody with manager on their business card is an evil grasping bastard. Just some of them. My big concern is one I know you share, and is at the heart of my worries on the way that 457s are being bagged. I know you have genuine concerns about the labour market impact of some 457 migration, and whilst I think you overstate that, and understate the potential advantages, I sense your concern is genuine. However, my concern about this is that for many in the community, bagging 457s is a coded form of racism, and is thus a very dangerous game to join in with. Like you I fear the rise of the One Nation right in Australia, and I worry that some 457 is going to be on the wrong end of a beating, or worse. I've seen the looks on people's faces when I tell them I'm on a 457 - it says 'you're not the picture I had in my head', because the picture they had in their head is some form of malevolent bogeyman. If such bogeymen exist, it's my experience that most 457s don't fit the stereotype. Have a good weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 (edited) Australians by nature are lazy, that is even driving 50 foot to the local shop!. If I owned a large Oil company i would go the extra expense and mile to get expats. The jobs would get done better and cheaper due to better skilled and harder workers who aren't hung up on trade union ways of doing things. I do find it unfair as I know others on more than me doing the same job, they get flown home for 2 or 3 weeks off every 10 weeks also when i get nothing. The other side for them is that they have to go after 4 years................ the market is drying up as the economy shrinks, as more 457's go home it leaves less people here. That make it easier and cheaper to rent, better availability and less competition of goods and you never know service may even improve :-) Edited November 29, 2013 by dustyroad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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