Australians say no to 457

[flag of convenience]

I get upset when someone on a 457 visa, who has the same skills as myself, is kept on while I get laid off. It doesn't seem right that a citizen of a country comes second to a person on a temporary work visa.

 

Absolutely and expect to see more of it as business takes the option of least resistance. Fact being of course far from all workers being brought in are of hard to find professional skills .....Just wait until the rate for semi and skilled labourers starts to decline.

[flag of convenience]

You make some good points, I was a former 457 visa holder but this is why I am so vocal about it... there are some employers and employees rorting the system.... it is silly to argue that it's not happening. It just annoys me that the program is compromised like this. Sure 90% are genuine but it's those 10% that are not is what's the question here. It's not hypocrisy it's just common sense.

 

The point I was making is there is for majority of occupations there is NO skills assessment, this is what opens the program for abuse. Unskilled People desperately wanting PR are prepared to be exploited to get there, this under cuts unskilled locals.

 

Breaking the link of 457 transition to PR without the skills assessment removes the claws for some of the abuse, if people know they still need a skills assessment to get PR they won't be afraid to rock the boat on dodgy employers as there is no reason to keep quiet.

 

The other point I was making was in regards to Jack13 comments about people on the dole, it's just a strawman argument.

 

It is far from sure as much as 90% is genuine. Where do you get that figure from? What constitutes a genuine 457 holder? The over crowded It industry? Construction sites? Supermarket Meat Packers?

[Xenon4017]

It is ridiculous that the Australian government will bend over backwards in order to facilitate business wishes ahead of doing the right thing for folk living here.

 

And therein lies the root of the ignorance about 457 visas, or the job market in general. Your assumption is that there is a fixed number of jobs that can't go up or down. If we can exclude Johnny Foreigner from the equation then employers will have to improve conditions to attract workers, even bad workers, because there simply won't be anyone else to fill the position.

 

Businesses want to to employ 457s because they want to get the job done. Which in turn makes their business profitable, which will grow their business and provide more jobs. If you don't give them that flexibility then they will, if possible, go elsewhere to a regime that does afford them this. Just look at the car industry in SA and VIC.

 

Doing the "right thing by folk living here" means creating a business climate that rewards investment, and therefore stimulates growth. It makes no sense to cancel 50,000 457 visas if you end up losing 70,000 jobs as a result.

[Joebloggs]

It is far from sure as much as 90% is genuine. Where do you get that figure from? What constitutes a genuine 457 holder? The over crowded It industry? Construction sites? Supermarket Meat Packers?

 

Brendan O'Connor said it was 10% were not genuine, many self serving dismissed that figure but I reckon it was at least 10%. As for 90% I am giving the benefit of the doubt as legit, but to be honest on this thread we hear of 'highly skilled' what about lower skilled (as opposed to 10% unskilled) . Not every occupation on the CSOL is 'highly skilled' the whole thing has turned to a bit of shambles. Maybe they should set the TSMIT to $80K, It will help focus on high skills rather than finding a cheapie.

[Paul1Perth]

I get upset when someone on a 457 visa, who has the same skills as myself, is kept on while I get laid off. It doesn't seem right that a citizen of a country comes second to a person on a temporary work visa.

 

Just heard on the radio a guy ringing in about his son who got made redundant from his apprenticeship at west trac today. All while 457 visa holders were kept on. Just plain wrong.

[flag of convenience]

Just heard on the radio a guy ringing in about his son who got made redundant from his apprenticeship at west trac today. All while 457 visa holders were kept on. Just plain wrong.

 

It is in danger of leading to a place few of us want to go. 457 must become a political issue of magnitude. Government and business cannot be trusted on the matter, that is one thing for certain.

[Paul1Perth]

Also heard from a friend of mine, who was working on the Fiona Stanley IT project, that British Telecom who won the contract, were bringing in Indian workers on 457 visas and not making much of an effort to look for local people.

[flag of convenience]

Brendan O'Connor said it was 10% were not genuine, many self serving dismissed that figure but I reckon it was at least 10%. As for 90% I am giving the benefit of the doubt as legit, but to be honest on this thread we hear of 'highly skilled' what about lower skilled (as opposed to 10% unskilled) . Not every occupation on the CSOL is 'highly skilled' the whole thing has turned to a bit of shambles. Maybe they should set the TSMIT to $80K, It will help focus on high skills rather than finding a cheapie.

 

Like I say what is legit? Without accessing the local work place nothing is legit in my opinion. 457 should not be a way for business to access workers willy nilly from abroad. Wait until the down turn really starts to impact.

[Xenon4017]

Just heard on the radio a guy ringing in about his son who got made redundant from his apprenticeship at west trac today. All while 457 visa holders were kept on. Just plain wrong.

 

Whereas the logical thing to do would be to sack the productive 457s, leave the aprentice to cope as best he can, then shut the whole factory in 3 months time. You will have eliminated the 457s, but also the jobs they were doing and the peripheral jobs they helped to secure.

[flag of convenience]

Also heard from a friend of mine, who was working on the Fiona Stanley IT project, that British Telecom who won the contract, were bringing in Indian workers on 457 visas and not making much of an effort to look for local people.

 

IT already known for this. My nursing friend in Melbourne mentioned some months ago domestic staff being brought into her workplace on $19 an hour.

[flag of convenience]

Whereas the logical thing to do would be to sack the productive 457s, leave the aprentice to cope as best he can, then shut the whole factory in 3 months time. You will have eliminated the 457s, but also the jobs they were doing and the peripheral jobs they helped to secure.

 

Or access the market here for local talent first. Revolutionary concept I know.

[jack13]

vering away from the argument I actually dont care that these visas are putting Australians out of work. I think if these people on the visas are better employees then so be it.

[flag of convenience]

And therein lies the root of the ignorance about 457 visas, or the job market in general. Your assumption is that there is a fixed number of jobs that can't go up or down. If we can exclude Johnny Foreigner from the equation then employers will have to improve conditions to attract workers, even bad workers, because there simply won't be anyone else to fill the position.

 

Businesses want to to employ 457s because they want to get the job done. Which in turn makes their business profitable, which will grow their business and provide more jobs. If you don't give them that flexibility then they will, if possible, go elsewhere to a regime that does afford them this. Just look at the car industry in SA and VIC.

 

Doing the "right thing by folk living here" means creating a business climate that rewards investment, and therefore stimulates growth. It makes no sense to cancel 50,000 457 visas if you end up losing 70,000 jobs as a result.

 

You sound like another poster that used to comment here defending what is in fact un defendable. So locals shouldn't get a look in as only foreigners can get the job done? I have deep concerns for the future of Australia when I read such as a comment as a justification for allowing the abuse business is committing on the nation.

[flag of convenience]

vering away from the argument I actually dont care that these visas are putting Australians out of work. I think if these people on the visas are better employees then so be it.

 

At least spoken the way a lot business thinks so more the reason folk should get on board to put a stop to the rorts and dig a hole for comments such as above.

[flag of convenience]

Well I'm afraid I 100% disagree there, what ever happened to giving everyone a fair go? Also there are actually laws in place where employers have to check there are no Australians suited for or interested in the job. At the end of the day these people are here because they worked hard and went around things the right way.

 

No the laws have been removed nothing in place to check. Bet that'll make your day..

[Xenon4017]

You sound like another poster that used to comment here defending what is in fact un defendable.

Try and play the ball not the man.

 

 

So locals shouldn't get a look in as only foreigners can get the job done?

Not what I said. Locals often look in, but don't like what they see. Because they've been conditioned to expect more for less. But eventually this disparity creeps up on them.

 

 

I have deep concerns for the future of Australia when I read such as a comment as a justification for allowing the abuse business is committing on the nation.

 

Businesses are just trying to run a business (and paying corp tax etc etc etc in the process). My fear is that other larger firms such as Ford will up sticks and go abroad. They'll take their 457s with them, so you'll be happy. But there still won't be a job for your children at whatever wage.

[flag of convenience]

There are a number of misconceptions and prejudices which need to be challenged here.

 

Firstly, there are some people posting on this thread, and elsewhere on the site, who appear to work on the presumption that there are (morally) superior and inferior routes for economic migration to Australia, and that in some way those who arrived by direct entry are somehow ‘better’ than people who arrived on 457s. Let’s be frank, no one migrated to Australia for Australia’s benefit - we all came for our own benefit, because we wanted to live and work here, permanently or temporarily. So all the arguments about how useful anyone is, or is not, to Australia, and how that justifies the superiority of direct entrants, is specious nonsense. Australia decides it will allow certain people with particular skills into the country through different visa routes. If you fit, great, you can come here to live and work. But because your skill is on one list or another does not make you morally or in any other way intrinsically superior. So let’s get over the ‘holier than thou’ routine.

 

Secondly, that somehow 457 visas are a second rate way of coming into the country, because you weren’t wonderful enough to get direct entry (or as one charming entry put it, 457s are ‘too lazy’ to bother with direct entry). Even if you are fortunate enough to be on the direct entry list of skills, there are many reasons why you might initially enter the country as a 457. If you already have a job, then the 457 route is a quicker way for the employer to get you here – it also means that if you turn out to be useless, they aren’t stuck with you, and they haven’t thrown even more money on a bad hire. It may also benefit the migrant to get here sooner, and to come temporarily, since if they don’t like it, it has been less of a commitment. And of course, some migrants only want to come for a few years, or their employers only want them for a few years. Some of all of these groups of people later transfer to PR, through entirely legitimate and legal routes. They pay the same taxes, and are just as likely to work hard or slack off as any direct entrant.

 

Thirdly, that 457s nick jobs from fair dinkum Aussies. I’ve already dealt with a lot of this above, but look at it this way. A 457 who is flipping burgers, or working for less than the market rate, is in breach of their visa – they are being exploited, or they are engaging in a rort. There are enforcement routes to deal with this, and the only argument is whether they are being properly used. On the other hand, a direct entrant is entitled to flip burgers or work for less than a local if they so choose – they are not (always) required to work in the occupation which gained them entry into the country, and they may not do so either out of choice, or because they cannot find work in their specialist field. So which is better for young or unqualified locals? You could equally argue that 457s are the better bet, since they are far less likely to be working in low skilled or low paid jobs. As someone else put it above, 457s have to do the job they came over to do (nearly always highly skilled and highly paid), whereas direct entrants can do what they like.

 

There also appears to be a complete lack of understanding amongst some posters about how international labour markets work. There are very many skills which are transferable between countries, and in many occupations, foreign experience is a great advantage both in career progression and skills development, and to the employer. That’s why highly skilled people in many fields work in other countries – whether they are Aussies working in the UK, poms working here, or Germans working in Canada. For many skilled occupations, it isn’t a case of skill shortages, but simply a case that it benefits all parties (the employed person, the employer, and the economy of the country they work in) to have the flexibility to choose to employ someone who happens to have citizenship somewhere else.

 

As for the people who toss around blanket accusations or insinuations that 457s are forging qualifications, using fraudulent references, not being checked properly, or just too lazy to do it the ‘proper’ way, you are clearly so full of your own moral superiority that no logic is going to get through to you. And again, why are we not concerned about forgery and fraud on other routes of entry? Why are 457s uniquely suspect? Fraud is a crime, whatever the entry route, and can be dealt with as such. And what makes so many migrants think they have the moral right to pull up the ladder after they have arrived? Generally, that is called hypocrisy.

 

No there are no misconceptions. An increasingly large number of folk living in Oz are fully aware of the abuses being conducted under the guise of the 457. Your points have all been answered in other posts and threats on the matter and don't intend to go over old ground.

Many of us just hope the matter becomes a political flash point and this dreadful Abbott government pays the supreme price of being taken to the gallows post haste.

[flag of convenience]

Try and play the ball not the man.

 

 

 

Not what I said. Locals often look in, but don't like what they see. Because they've been conditioned to expect more for less. But eventually this disparity creeps up on them.

 

 

 

 

Businesses are just trying to run a business (and paying corp tax etc etc etc in the process). My fear is that other larger firms such as Ford will up sticks and go abroad. They'll take their 457s with them, so you'll be happy. But there still won't be a job for your children at whatever wage.

 

I always play the ball but commented as saw fit. The car industry will likely have little future when the Free Trade deals are signed with our Asian neighbours as the lifting of tariffs on imported cars is high on those countries demands. Business wants to cut costs at every point and this is but the beginning. No benefit at all the Aussie based folk as business exploits a like minded government. Sadly far worse to come yet...

Just what sort of future this country holds is something of a very mute point. A lot of kids will without doubt move to places where their skills are better rewarded and a life of servitude to pay an over inflated house doesn't necessary apply.

[flag of convenience]

Anyway I have commented extensively on another thread in PiO on this matter. It got down to myself and another player over pages of comments, the other with vested interests attempted to defend the indefensible but there you go. I really can't be bothered repeating all I said on that occasion.

Rest assured though, with the arrival of a business friendly government, to put it mildly, the issue has worsened.

 

The fact that business can advertise over social media even for local based applicants with no fear of any compliance says it all.

[Xenon4017]

Let's see if I can decipher this....

 

The car industry will likely have little future when the Free Trade deals are signed with our Asian neighbours as the lifting of tariffs on imported cars is high on those countries demands.

 

Quite. We'll have to learn how to make cars more efficiently. Is there anything inherently wrong with that? International competition?

 

 

Just what sort of future this country holds is something of a very mute point.

 

Do you mean "mute" or "moot". The point is far from moot; it revolves around whether Oz accepts the international realities and takes up the challenge, or tries to ignore the issues and wait for another God-given mining boom.

 

A lot of kids will without doubt move to places where their skills are better rewarded and a life of servitude to pay an over inflated house doesn't necessary apply.

 

No, you lost me there. You didn't used to write lyrics for Procol Harem, did you?

[flag of convenience]

Let's see if I can decipher this....

 

 

 

Quite. We'll have to learn how to make cars more efficiently. Is there anything inherently wrong with that? International competition?

 

 

 

 

Do you mean "mute" or "moot". The point is far from moot; it revolves around whether Oz accepts the international realities and takes up the challenge, or tries to ignore the issues and wait for another God-given mining boom.

 

 

 

No, you lost me there. You didn't used to write lyrics for Procol Harem, did you?

 

There will likely be no car industry at all. I'll try and say it with greater simplicity. The importing of overseas workers into Australia circumstancing a trained Aussie based work force while good for corporation/business is a Rip Off to the people of this country.

 

Rest self explanatory. I can see why you could be a little lost perhaps....

[Paul1Perth]

Whereas the logical thing to do would be to sack the productive 457s, leave the aprentice to cope as best he can, then shut the whole factory in 3 months time. You will have eliminated the 457s, but also the jobs they were doing and the peripheral jobs they helped to secure.

 

I'm sure not all workers would be 457 visa holders. The right thing to do would have been to get rid of the 457's, keep the apprentices on and put them with the Aussie workforce that are left. They wouldn't be costing the company much what with subsidies for training them and there are a lot of jobs in that type of work where an apprentice can be just about as productive as a fully qualified worker.

 

Companies don't care about the right thing to do though do they. They are just worried about their shareholders, profits and whether Don Veolte and the rest of the management team will get their bonuses.

[Paul1Perth]

I always play the ball but commented as saw fit. The car industry will likely have little future when the Free Trade deals are signed with our Asian neighbours as the lifting of tariffs on imported cars is high on those countries demands. Business wants to cut costs at every point and this is but the beginning. No benefit at all the Aussie based folk as business exploits a like minded government. Sadly far worse to come yet...

Just what sort of future this country holds is something of a very mute point. A lot of kids will without doubt move to places where their skills are better rewarded and a life of servitude to pay an over inflated house doesn't necessary apply.

 

If you can think of a place where skills are better rewarded than Aus at the moment flag, let me know. I certainly can't think of anywhere, maybe the middle East but who would want to live there when you can FIFO week on week off, to Port Hedland out of Perth. Housing is over inflated everywhere jobs are available.

[Paul1Perth]

Let's see if I can decipher this....

 

 

 

Quite. We'll have to learn how to make cars more efficiently. Is there anything inherently wrong with that? International competition?

 

 

 

 

Do you mean "mute" or "moot". The point is far from moot; it revolves around whether Oz accepts the international realities and takes up the challenge, or tries to ignore the issues and wait for another God-given mining boom.

 

 

 

No, you lost me there. You didn't used to write lyrics for Procol Harem, did you?

 

The car industry is heavily subsidised everywhere that has one. Aus just has to decide whether it wants a car industry and wear the subsidies, like the other countries do. It's up to Ford and Holden whether they invest in the plant to make it more efficient. The technology to do that has been around for years.

[flag of convenience]

If you can think of a place where skills are better rewarded than Aus at the moment flag, let me know. I certainly can't think of anywhere, maybe the middle East but who would want to live there when you can FIFO week on week off, to Port Hedland out of Perth. Housing is over inflated everywhere jobs are available.

 

Where to begin. Firstly reward is not solely money is it? It is surely about security of job, pension and living in a rewarding aesthetic environment. And actually yes I can think of places depending on skill set. For example Finance would be London, New York or Hong Kong. Science and innovative areas would be USA. Depending on language ability some very good banking and educational positions in Switzerland.

In fact white collar areas Australia is seldom the best. For the moment trades are raking it in but foolish to think that will remain constantly the case.

 

Australia is competing in a very tough environment and business has a goal to lower costs rather substantially as well as increase productivity. I struggle a little to see how rates can be increased with already the workforce working some of the longest hours in the world. No wonder stress related factors are impacting on those in work. The desire of business to recruit from whatever source, free of any government interference is hardly a new concept nor with the interest of the country concerned part of the concept. Trans global corporations are but that, and sadly ever increasing in power and influence over elected government, especially those with a Conservative leaning.

Talk about back to the future.

Tel me the sense in allowing business to recruit direct from abroad and how skills are going to be rewarded or even gained in the first place.

You may have noticed a radical rise in Tafe costs recently announced as well.