Australians say no to 457

[Joebloggs]

They are bringing in a passive work force, dependant on their employer for a permanent visa, willing to put up with crap in the process. Nothing to do with those already here can't or want do the work. As the requirements to seel locals don't require prove that they actually did attempt to source at local level the whole thing is a joke. Aussies in fact barely get a look in, in many cases.

 

Also add to that there is no requirement to have any skills assessment or qualifications, a creative CV dating back 5 years and maybe a reference on some headed paper from your 'uncle' is good enough.

 

The 457 has it's place and use, to temporarily fill skill gaps. It's the link to PR without skills a assessment which is the travesty..... do away with the transition stream and you are removing the rorting stick from the employers hand.

 

The only ones who argue otherwise are those party to it or making money from it.

 

Those who 90% 457 who are genuinely skilled can always obtain a skills assessment and apply directly for PR.

[Pozz]

Also add to that there is no requirement to have any skills assessment or qualifications, a creative CV dating back 5 years and maybe a reference on some headed paper from your 'uncle' is good enough.

 

The 457 has it's place and use, to temporarily fill skill gaps. It's the link to PR without skills a assessment which is the travesty..... do away with the transition stream and you are removing the rorting stick from the employers hand.

 

The only ones who argue otherwise are those party to it or making money from it.

 

Those who 90% 457 who are genuinely skilled can always obtain a skills assessment and apply directly for PR.

 

 

Really? That's news to me! Or are you being sarcastic?!

[fensaddler]

They are bringing in a passive work force, dependant on their employer for a permanent visa, willing to put up with crap in the process. Nothing to do with those already here can't or want do the work. As the requirements to seel locals don't require prove that they actually did attempt to source at local level the whole thing is a joke. Aussies in fact barely get a look in, in many cases.

 

You purport to describe me FoC, but I don't recognise myself. Passive? Dependent? Willing to put up with crap? Not at work and not on here either.

[fensaddler]

Also add to that there is no requirement to have any skills assessment or qualifications, a creative CV dating back 5 years and maybe a reference on some headed paper from your 'uncle' is good enough.

 

The 457 has it's place and use, to temporarily fill skill gaps. It's the link to PR without skills a assessment which is the travesty..... do away with the transition stream and you are removing the rorting stick from the employers hand.

 

The only ones who argue otherwise are those party to it or making money from it.

 

Those who 90% 457 who are genuinely skilled can always obtain a skills assessment and apply directly for PR.

 

A creative CV is it? And false references to get here? Thanks for the blanket condemnation. And the sly reference to the uncle is just dog whistle racism, because in your world the bad 457s are suspiciously 'foreign' unlike us honest to goodness poms... Of course you didn't mean me?

[scuffythetugboat]

My experience of the 457 system is this. Where I worked they won a big contract then they employed some local workers and then brought over some 457 workers from the UK to make the numbers up. The 457 workers were on a 2 year contract. The locals were employed as permanent workers. Everyone had the same skills and we were all paid the same rate. A year later things went quiet and supervision decided that they wanted the locals laid off first. Fortunately, for the locals, the HR department said that the 457 workers must go first and they did.

 

A 457 visa is a temporary one. If people want to migrate they should apply for a PR visa. If they want to come over on a temporary visa then be prepared for it to be exactly that.

[Joebloggs]

A creative CV is it? And false references to get here? Thanks for the blanket condemnation. And the sly reference to the uncle is just dog whistle racism, because in your world the bad 457s are suspiciously 'foreign' unlike us honest to goodness poms... Of course you didn't mean me?

 

I did say 10%

 

You could easily be in 90% who are genuine, who knows.

Edited November 27, 2013 by Joebloggs

[flag of convenience]

I can only comment on my own experiences and of those in similar professional circles.

 

My experience shows that employers have to prove themselves worthy to sponsor 457 temporary, and 186 permanent visas, which is not an easy process. I can not comment on 457 visa processes outside of the UK, of which I am dubious of.

 

And you have every right to be extremely dubious of. The right of employers to basically access the foreign market directly and has any support from those domiciled here beggars belief.

[flag of convenience]

We've got a couple of 457s. It's for a specialist industrial process field, and the idea was to train up local people. We've gone through three locals guys in 2 years who at first wanted the job then quit for one reason or another. One of our 457s will have to leave next year anyway.

 

I hear a lot about giving jobs to locals, but when we try, they move on as soon as they hit the first hurdle. It seems to be just too easy to give up and fall back on the Centrelink cushion. Or take the long-service holiday.

 

None of the 457s I know are screwing the tops on toothpaste; they're bringing unique skills that can't be found here and although they're trying to pass these skills on, no one seems to be interested.

 

Must be a reason specialised folk move on. Those in skilled (unique skills)or professional areas are very unlikely to access Centre Link don't you think? Most want the conditions in place that go with their skill set. Foreign workers on the other have to put up with poor management and the rest as part of the deal.

While good for the business not so good for locals.

 

I have known business to advertise and select no one and I suspect barely glance at the pile of applications with minds already made up on taking 457s (I suspect,as that is what happened)

[flag of convenience]

Also add to that there is no requirement to have any skills assessment or qualifications, a creative CV dating back 5 years and maybe a reference on some headed paper from your 'uncle' is good enough.

 

The 457 has it's place and use, to temporarily fill skill gaps. It's the link to PR without skills a assessment which is the travesty..... do away with the transition stream and you are removing the rorting stick from the employers hand.

 

The only ones who argue otherwise are those party to it or making money from it.

 

Those who 90% 457 who are genuinely skilled can always obtain a skills assessment and apply directly for PR.

 

Exactly. 457 is for, or should be for those with professions hard to match within Australia. Not a means to stay for those that don't meet criteria in the normal way, nor those too lazy to apply the normal way and obtain due to speed and cheapness. Becoming more of a backpackers way to stay on also.

[flag of convenience]

You purport to describe me FoC, but I don't recognise myself. Passive? Dependent? Willing to put up with crap? Not at work and not on here either.

 

I don't talk personalities. If it worked for you fine. Many do put up with crap depends on the position brought in obviously. One shoe doesn't fit all. Regardless though job should be for the local market firstly. Imports secondly when clearly demonstrated a local based person is unavailable. End off. With certain exceptions where the position is rare or an extreme urgency can be clearly demonstrated.

[Xenon4017]

Must be a reason specialised folk move on. Most want the conditions in place that go with their skill set.

 

Actually, most want "conditions" (aka top salary) _before_ their skill set is up to scratch. They don't seem to understand that increased productivity comes before a pay rise, not after.

 

 

Foreign workers on the other have to put up with poor management and the rest as part of the deal.

 

 

This is where most Ozzies really miss the point. The 457s I work with aren't after PR. They're specialists who already have possibilities elsewhere. Their goal is to show people here how the machines work then go. One 457 was told it'll take about a year to train someone up. 2 years tops. We never imagined that he'd be entering his fourth year. They're not some kind of cheap labour, in fact they cost more if you take into account hotels and hire cars. I think it really surprises some people to discover that staying in Australia isn't a number one priority for everyone on the planet.

[Incata]

Not really. Look the way I see it like it or not. These people on 457's that get jobs over Australians who don't, are obviously the better person for the job. They are not stealing the job or taking away the job, they are just simply the best man or woman for the job. Simples! which is why an employer would pick them over someone else. And in the case of that more deserving of a job in Australia.

 

Locals should not have to compete with 457s for jobs. If there is a job a local with similar experience should get it - doesn't matter who is better person for job if both have similar skills. Companies should also be investing in training their workforce not bringing in more 457s. 457s were only supposed to be if skills were not available in Australia - this does not appear to be what is happening. It has all gotten out of control. I know one company rapidly expanding (white collar workers) and it is full of 457s with two token Aussies. There should also be a training budget for each 457 they take on but it certainly is not getting spent where it should be. Tighter controls are needed.

 

With the 457 (as of the 23rd November) companies are required to evidence (rather than just say they do) that they spend either 1% of their total payroll on training staff, or pay 2% of their budget to a Regional Training Organisation. Up until now companies could just say they were and they were not checked. Now they have to show the invoices. So while the training budget is not specifically for the people on 457s, it does mean that the company can't just pay lip service to training existing employees.

Edited November 27, 2013 by Incata
inserting month

[fifi69]

I've only read the last few posts...but can't Believe what I've read.

 

not sure what people from other countries have to do to get it...but I know when we applied for 457 we had to show lots of proof of everything from qualifications to work experience and it was all checked...

 

We then had to go thru it all again when applying for PR...the company also had to jump thru hoops.

 

Tbh though I swing from are we getting a decent deal....money wise we aren't better off financially.

 

But we are def a lot better off in lifestyle...and I'm happy with that, it works for us.

 

So if it hadn't been for the 457 we wouldn't be in the position we are now....I'm glad it was there for us

[flag of convenience]

Actually, most want "conditions" (aka top salary) _before_ their skill set is up to scratch. They don't seem to understand that increased productivity comes before a pay rise, not after.

 

 

 

This is where most Ozzies really miss the point. The 457s I work with aren't after PR. They're specialists who already have possibilities elsewhere. Their goal is to show people here how the machines work then go. One 457 was told it'll take about a year to train someone up. 2 years tops. We never imagined that he'd be entering his fourth year. They're not some kind of cheap labour, in fact they cost more if you take into account hotels and hire cars. I think it really surprises some people to discover that staying in Australia isn't a number one priority for everyone on the planet.

 

Some 60% I seem to recall do go on and remain in OZ so that claim is wrong. Aussies don't miss the point and some can see very clearly what is happening and will do so with less control with a Conservative, business influenced government. One persons experiences cannot account for the large numbers being brought in under different guises. Increasingly you'll note a lot less of a skill set making up the numbers. It is clearly documented excess numbers in IT have been brought in. With employment tightening, prices rising, you may well expect a back lash at some stage if the rot continues and expands which it looks like doing.

 

For the sake of harmony in both society and the workplace Aussie based folk must get first pickings of the pie.

[flag of convenience]

I've only read the last few posts...but can't Believe what I've read.

 

not sure what people from other countries have to do to get it...but I know when we applied for 457 we had to show lots of proof of everything from qualifications to work experience and it was all checked...

 

We then had to go thru it all again when applying for PR...the company also had to jump thru hoops.

 

Tbh though I swing from are we getting a decent deal....money wise we aren't better off financially.

 

But we are def a lot better off in lifestyle...and I'm happy with that, it works for us.

 

So if it hadn't been for the 457 we wouldn't be in the position we are now....I'm glad it was there for us

 

457 sorry, but should not be away to get around the immigration rules.

[Petals]

We can discuss this matter till the cows come home, but it will not change the perception by Australians that these visas take jobs away from Australians. In the end the pollies usually want to please the masses if they want to be reelected. I still believe that a lot of people do come in on these visas and do not perform the jobs they are supposed to be doing. This does not help those people who are not working the system.

 

Some migrants from the UK are lucky with these visas but I would say that a lot are not happy with them especially when they find they have to leave the country after the job ends. With the job market retracting, it will become harder to find a new sponsor if the original sponsor business hits a problem and wants to downsize.

[jack13]

Exactly. 457 is for, or should be for those with professions hard to match within Australia. Not a means to stay for those that don't meet criteria in the normal way, nor those too lazy to apply the normal way and obtain due to speed and cheapness. Becoming more of a backpackers way to stay on also.

That's ridiculous, yer well its no more a backpackers way to stay on than defacto visas. At the end of the day these people are here because they worked hard and they went about things the right way.

Edited November 28, 2013 by jack13

[jack13]

Not really. Look the way I see it like it or not. These people on 457's that get jobs over Australians who don't, are obviously the better person for the job. They are not stealing the job or taking away the job, they are just simply the best man or woman for the job. Simples! which is why an employer would pick them over someone else. And in the case of that more deserving of a job in Australia.

 

Locals should not have to compete with 457s for jobs. If there is a job a local with similar experience should get it - doesn't matter who is better person for job if both have similar skills. Companies should also be investing in training their workforce not bringing in more 457s. 457s were only supposed to be if skills were not available in Australia - this does not appear to be what is happening. It has all gotten out of control. I know one company rapidly expanding (white collar workers) and it is full of 457s with two token Aussies. There should also be a training budget for each 457 they take on but it certainly is not getting spent where it should be. Tighter controls are needed.

Well I'm afraid I 100% disagree there, what ever happened to giving everyone a fair go? Also there are actually laws in place where employers have to check there are no Australians suited for or interested in the job. At the end of the day these people are here because they worked hard and went around things the right way.

Edited November 28, 2013 by jack13

[scuffythetugboat]

Well I agree with your first sentence, it was never intended for this purpose.

 

But are you aware that the Liberal government have been in power for only a couple of months now and they did not introduce the 457 visa? No it was always there, well when I say always I can only comment on the last 12 years when I have been aware of it anyway.

 

The good news for those concerned about jobs for Australians are that is me new restrictions are finally coming in with some market testing being introduced in November 2013. Certainly it was the idea of the previous government, but only in their dying days and most saw it as a cynical attempt to capture some last minute headlines and votes, they didn't care that much about labour testing during the previous 6 years after all eh? Not even during the GFC.

 

Must admit I am same as the poster below, people I know on 457 visas are highly skilled and they are not paid any differently to any other employee.

 

The 457 visa was introduced in 1996 by John Howard.

[Paul1Perth]

My experience of the 457 system is this. Where I worked they won a big contract then they employed some local workers and then brought over some 457 workers from the UK to make the numbers up. The 457 workers were on a 2 year contract. The locals were employed as permanent workers. Everyone had the same skills and we were all paid the same rate. A year later things went quiet and supervision decided that they wanted the locals laid off first. Fortunately, for the locals, the HR department said that the 457 workers must go first and they did.

 

A 457 visa is a temporary one. If people want to migrate they should apply for a PR visa. If they want to come over on a temporary visa then be prepared for it to be exactly that.

 

Great that the company in question had a decent HR department but you can see how employers want to manipulate the system.

[Aorange]

Many of us have a view point or personal experience with the 457.

For me it was an initial entry to migration as my employee required somebody with my experience and knowledge in a speciality field within a short timeframe to manage a business and support local employees. This was successfully achieved.

I also felt secure knowing I had a job on arrival and also recognised the pitfalls of the 457 being a temporary visa, but discussed from the beginning with the company to apply for a PR visa - which they were happy to do as they recognised that it was a full time permanent role (and would have done so from the beginning if the visa was granted within a short time frame as was the 457 visa).

The company subsequently sponsored my PR as part of the justification my credentials had to be verified.

I am still employed in my field of work.

There is No simple right or wrong its about circumstances. I know of people who came over here with permanent residency to fulfil a specific trade or occupation only to walk away and change careers down the track- therefore not fulfilling the role that they originally came across to contribute towards the economy, I also have a mate whose company sponsor him on a 457 yet he has a technical role in high demand but that's the policy of the company.

Edited November 28, 2013 by Aorange

[fensaddler]

There are a number of misconceptions and prejudices which need to be challenged here.

 

Firstly, there are some people posting on this thread, and elsewhere on the site, who appear to work on the presumption that there are (morally) superior and inferior routes for economic migration to Australia, and that in some way those who arrived by direct entry are somehow ‘better’ than people who arrived on 457s. Let’s be frank, no one migrated to Australia for Australia’s benefit - we all came for our own benefit, because we wanted to live and work here, permanently or temporarily. So all the arguments about how useful anyone is, or is not, to Australia, and how that justifies the superiority of direct entrants, is specious nonsense. Australia decides it will allow certain people with particular skills into the country through different visa routes. If you fit, great, you can come here to live and work. But because your skill is on one list or another does not make you morally or in any other way intrinsically superior. So let’s get over the ‘holier than thou’ routine.

 

Secondly, that somehow 457 visas are a second rate way of coming into the country, because you weren’t wonderful enough to get direct entry (or as one charming entry put it, 457s are ‘too lazy’ to bother with direct entry). Even if you are fortunate enough to be on the direct entry list of skills, there are many reasons why you might initially enter the country as a 457. If you already have a job, then the 457 route is a quicker way for the employer to get you here – it also means that if you turn out to be useless, they aren’t stuck with you, and they haven’t thrown even more money on a bad hire. It may also benefit the migrant to get here sooner, and to come temporarily, since if they don’t like it, it has been less of a commitment. And of course, some migrants only want to come for a few years, or their employers only want them for a few years. Some of all of these groups of people later transfer to PR, through entirely legitimate and legal routes. They pay the same taxes, and are just as likely to work hard or slack off as any direct entrant.

 

Thirdly, that 457s nick jobs from fair dinkum Aussies. I’ve already dealt with a lot of this above, but look at it this way. A 457 who is flipping burgers, or working for less than the market rate, is in breach of their visa – they are being exploited, or they are engaging in a rort. There are enforcement routes to deal with this, and the only argument is whether they are being properly used. On the other hand, a direct entrant is entitled to flip burgers or work for less than a local if they so choose – they are not (always) required to work in the occupation which gained them entry into the country, and they may not do so either out of choice, or because they cannot find work in their specialist field. So which is better for young or unqualified locals? You could equally argue that 457s are the better bet, since they are far less likely to be working in low skilled or low paid jobs. As someone else put it above, 457s have to do the job they came over to do (nearly always highly skilled and highly paid), whereas direct entrants can do what they like.

 

There also appears to be a complete lack of understanding amongst some posters about how international labour markets work. There are very many skills which are transferable between countries, and in many occupations, foreign experience is a great advantage both in career progression and skills development, and to the employer. That’s why highly skilled people in many fields work in other countries – whether they are Aussies working in the UK, poms working here, or Germans working in Canada. For many skilled occupations, it isn’t a case of skill shortages, but simply a case that it benefits all parties (the employed person, the employer, and the economy of the country they work in) to have the flexibility to choose to employ someone who happens to have citizenship somewhere else.

 

As for the people who toss around blanket accusations or insinuations that 457s are forging qualifications, using fraudulent references, not being checked properly, or just too lazy to do it the ‘proper’ way, you are clearly so full of your own moral superiority that no logic is going to get through to you. And again, why are we not concerned about forgery and fraud on other routes of entry? Why are 457s uniquely suspect? Fraud is a crime, whatever the entry route, and can be dealt with as such. And what makes so many migrants think they have the moral right to pull up the ladder after they have arrived? Generally, that is called hypocrisy.

[Joebloggs]

There are a number of misconceptions and prejudices which need to be challenged here.

 

Firstly, there are some people posting on this thread, and elsewhere on the site, who appear to work on the presumption that there are (morally) superior and inferior routes for economic migration to Australia, and that in some way those who arrived by direct entry are somehow ‘better’ than people who arrived on 457s. Let’s be frank, no one migrated to Australia for Australia’s benefit - we all came for our own benefit, because we wanted to live and work here, permanently or temporarily. So all the arguments about how useful anyone is, or is not, to Australia, and how that justifies the superiority of direct entrants, is specious nonsense. Australia decides it will allow certain people with particular skills into the country through different visa routes. If you fit, great, you can come here to live and work. But because your skill is on one list or another does not make you morally or in any other way intrinsically superior. So let’s get over the ‘holier than thou’ routine.

 

Secondly, that somehow 457 visas are a second rate way of coming into the country, because you weren’t wonderful enough to get direct entry (or as one charming entry put it, 457s are ‘too lazy’ to bother with direct entry). Even if you are fortunate enough to be on the direct entry list of skills, there are many reasons why you might initially enter the country as a 457. If you already have a job, then the 457 route is a quicker way for the employer to get you here – it also means that if you turn out to be useless, they aren’t stuck with you, and they haven’t thrown even more money on a bad hire. It may also benefit the migrant to get here sooner, and to come temporarily, since if they don’t like it, it has been less of a commitment. And of course, some migrants only want to come for a few years, or their employers only want them for a few years. Some of all of these groups of people later transfer to PR, through entirely legitimate and legal routes. They pay the same taxes, and are just as likely to work hard or slack off as any direct entrant.

 

Thirdly, that 457s nick jobs from fair dinkum Aussies. I’ve already dealt with a lot of this above, but look at it this way. A 457 who is flipping burgers, or working for less than the market rate, is in breach of their visa – they are being exploited, or they are engaging in a rort. There are enforcement routes to deal with this, and the only argument is whether they are being properly used. On the other hand, a direct entrant is entitled to flip burgers or work for less than a local if they so choose – they are not (always) required to work in the occupation which gained them entry into the country, and they may not do so either out of choice, or because they cannot find work in their specialist field. So which is better for young or unqualified locals? You could equally argue that 457s are the better bet, since they are far less likely to be working in low skilled or low paid jobs. As someone else put it above, 457s have to do the job they came over to do (nearly always highly skilled and highly paid), whereas direct entrants can do what they like.

 

There also appears to be a complete lack of understanding amongst some posters about how international labour markets work. There are very many skills which are transferable between countries, and in many occupations, foreign experience is a great advantage both in career progression and skills development, and to the employer. That’s why highly skilled people in many fields work in other countries – whether they are Aussies working in the UK, poms working here, or Germans working in Canada. For many skilled occupations, it isn’t a case of skill shortages, but simply a case that it benefits all parties (the employed person, the employer, and the economy of the country they work in) to have the flexibility to choose to employ someone who happens to have citizenship somewhere else.

 

As for the people who toss around blanket accusations or insinuations that 457s are forging qualifications, using fraudulent references, not being checked properly, or just too lazy to do it the ‘proper’ way, you are clearly so full of your own moral superiority that no logic is going to get through to you. And again, why are we not concerned about forgery and fraud on other routes of entry? Why are 457s uniquely suspect? Fraud is a crime, whatever the entry route, and can be dealt with as such. And what makes so many migrants think they have the moral right to pull up the ladder after they have arrived? Generally, that is called hypocrisy.

 

You make some good points, I was a former 457 visa holder but this is why I am so vocal about it... there are some employers and employees rorting the system.... it is silly to argue that it's not happening. It just annoys me that the program is compromised like this. Sure 90% are genuine but it's those 10% that are not is what's the question here. It's not hypocrisy it's just common sense.

 

The point I was making is there is for majority of occupations there is NO skills assessment, this is what opens the program for abuse. Unskilled People desperately wanting PR are prepared to be exploited to get there, this under cuts unskilled locals.

 

Breaking the link of 457 transition to PR without the skills assessment removes the claws for some of the abuse, if people know they still need a skills assessment to get PR they won't be afraid to rock the boat on dodgy employers as there is no reason to keep quiet.

 

The other point I was making was in regards to Jack13 comments about people on the dole, it's just a strawman argument.

[scuffythetugboat]

I get upset when someone on a 457 visa, who has the same skills as myself, is kept on while I get laid off. It doesn't seem right that a citizen of a country comes second to a person on a temporary work visa.

[flag of convenience]

That's ridiculous, yer well its no more a backpackers way to stay on than defacto visas. At the end of the day these people are here because they worked hard and they went about things the right way.

 

It is ridiculous that the Australian government will bend over backwards in order to facilitate business wishes ahead of doing the right thing for folk living here. No it is legitimising the stay of a backpacker (as an example) a de facto visa obtained by fraud remains that. I am aware of cases where it has happened but the government is not part of that process. Some folk are genuine and any way from personal experience a de facto visa is not easily obtained while marriage is generally accepted.

 

It has nothing to do with people working hard. Everything to do with business perceptions and to what if any degree they went about doing things the right way.