Incata Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 (edited) I appreciate we are talking high level here, no detail should be given not to have the organization and the people indentified. Still from an abstract point of view, can anybody help me understand when a proposition becomes sexual harrassment? Mind, I am only trying to understand better from the unwanted ladys's point of you and HR/regulatory point of view as well (possibly). Some cases are black and white, though many seems to be very grey to me... PS Just in case my wife reads this: I DID NOT DO ANYTHING WRONG! :no: My background is HR. When we have dealt with sexual harassment it has not generally been a one off remark. It has been consistent, continuing and the person responsible has not taken no for an answer. The harassment has included emails (sometimes including the sending of porn), phonecalls requesting dates which are turned down repeatedly, sexual comments made in front of other members of staff to diminish the person it is targeted at. We also had one member of staff downloading porn and selling it to others in the office, and the one woman in the department felt quite threatened by what was being leered over in the office. These days it can sometimes verge on stalking, at which point it becomes a police matter. Some people are able to deal with it and a quick put down about the size of the persons "member" or their reputation for "lack of prowess" has sorted the person out. However, others (particularly women) try to be nice, or let them down gently and unfortunately the perpetrator sees this as a come on, or that the person is being shy and is really interested in them and they keep on with it. We have also had a case whereby someone just thought they were being funny, but it was not seen as that way by the person on the end of it. A proposition in comparison is generally a one off request and when they get rejected, they leave it at that (or go sick with stress when they get jeered at by the others in the office). Generally HR will deal with it on a case by case basis as sometimes what seems like sexual harassment to one person, will not be seen as that by someone else. Equally I would point out that sexual harassment does not necessarily have to be male perpetrator, female victim. In environments where there is a high proportion of women, it can be the other way round. In one company I worked at, it was traditional after the interview, for the person to be given a guided tour of the workplace. Without fail, the all female HR team would give male candidates points out of 10 when they had left the building, based on a number of their anatomical features (tightness of trousers was one and it got worse). It was seen as being a laugh by the women but I am not sure, if a man had been in the team, that they would have viewed it the same way. Nobody was being harassed but they would have been very upset if men if one of the male dominated departments had assessed and ranked them in a similar way. Incidentally jobs were not given based on the assessments of the HR Team! As you say, there are many shades of grey, which is why you cannot generally say what is and what is not sexual harassment, as it has to be looked at on a case by case basis. Edited August 8, 2013 by Incata Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamffc Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 My background is HR. As you say, there are many shades of grey. Fifty of them apparently Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incata Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 Fifty of them apparently Never read it. Prefer action and thrillers; being tied up by somebodies grandad just does not do it for me :laugh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamffc Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 Never read it. Prefer action and thrillers; being tied up by somebodies grandad just does not do it for me :laugh: Me neither, as with most books I shall wait for the film. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimoneAL Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 Well, thanks for the detailed explaination :wink: Perception and tollerance have changed enormously in the last decades, what would have been a silly comment 20 years ago now could tricker a disciplinary procedure. This is a positive change overall, a lot a work still to be done though.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pacticenurse Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 Never read it. Prefer action and thrillers; being tied up by somebodies grandad just does not do it for me :laugh: Grandad?? I read all 3 and no one was tied up by a grandad! Lol... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pacticenurse Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 Im suprised so many women are so relaxed about it, i dont know the full story but if he was sending her emails, making her feel uncomfortable etc then i'd be pissed off too. Its a bit different than a quick chat up line and then backing off. If he's been sacked there must be more to it or hes been doing it to other employees I'm not...... I think maybe because it sounded so minor, surely if someone made u felt uncomfortable then the last thing u would do is agree to have lunch with them. I think some women like attention then act all innocent. As can men! This post has been a bit ridiculous in my opinion, I'm not at all suprised at other responses because it did seem so OTT. If she could at least give the full facts then she good expect good advice or support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pacticenurse Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 Unfortunately for him I am playing Golf on Wednesday with the largest investor (a devout catholic man with grandkids, and high ethics). ^^^^^^^. Random! I just find this post a bit strange! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pacticenurse Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 Well, thanks for the detailed explaination :wink:Perception and tollerance have changed enormously in the last decades, what would have been a silly comment 20 years ago now could tricker a disciplinary procedure. This is a positive change overall, a lot a work still to be done though.... Some thing are just not PC..!!! It's ridiculous! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incata Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 Well, thanks for the detailed explaination :wink:Perception and tollerance have changed enormously in the last decades, what would have been a silly comment 20 years ago now could tricker a disciplinary procedure. This is a positive change overall, a lot a work still to be done though.... A minor silly comment is not going to trigger a disciplinary procedure. It is more likely to result in a quiet word about what is appropriate in a work environment and what is not. If it continues, then it will trigger the disciplinary procedure. This will general be a verbal warning, followed by a written warning if there are further remarks made. After that you are looking at either further action for gross misconduct and then eventually the sack. Most people would be smart enough after a quiet word to back off. I have not known any to be fired in the companies I have worked at. We have got as far as final written warning and then the message was got loud and clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest littlesarah Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 Well, thanks for the detailed explaination :wink:Perception and tollerance have changed enormously in the last decades, what would have been a silly comment 20 years ago now could tricker a disciplinary procedure. This is a positive change overall, a lot a work still to be done though.... I would think that one ill-considered comment would not likely lead to formal disciplinary action. What is completely unacceptable, in my view, is sexual harassment, in which the victim is pursued repeatedly and which often includes other forms of bullying and abuse of power/position. Several of my friends have been on the receiving end, and have had to change job in order to escape the harassment, which is terribly sad, in my view. Though ultimately in all cases, the person is now very happy in their work and have managed to seize opportunities that otherwise they may not have encountered or considered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimoneAL Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 Some thing are just not PC..!!! It's ridiculous! PC means...? coast patrol? Pareto chart? :confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sustain Posted August 9, 2013 Author Share Posted August 9, 2013 (edited) PC means...? coast patrol? Pareto chart? :confused: "political correctness" The Friday incident was just catalyst for him to be called to account. He was put on notice for his ability to maintain a C Level position and on his work related performance to date. He was also asked to explain the detail in the emails. - "stating that he was above rules and procedures and could bend them to get his way" could not be tolerated by the board - admitting to previous work relationships (extra marital) removes confidence required to maintain a C Level position Numerous females came forward with complaints, and the person concerned about Friday is the head of HR. She cannot maintain a professional working relationship with the individual because he has breached a sense of trust she required from him. All she can now imagine is him thinking about her in a not so professional manner. The position required utmost integrity and the combination of above and the details in the emails removed any confidence by the board. Additional facts were around non performance of key functional responsibilities that really question what the person has been doing since they arrived. Just to clarify, my golf conversation was to protect my friend who has significant investment in the company. The discussion was not swayed either way by the Friday incident. However the conversation about this performance was brought up from discussion about his personal integrity and ability to maintain respect of company employees. thank you all for your comments, always good to see other views. Edited August 9, 2013 by Sustain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CML1410 Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 The Friday incident was just catalyst for him to be called to account. He was put on notice for his ability to maintain a C Level position and on his work related performance to date. He was also asked to explain the detail in the emails. - "stating that he was above rules and procedures and could bend them to get his way" could not be tolerated by the board - admitting to previous work relationships (extra marital) removes confidence required to maintain a C Level position Numerous females came forward with complaints, and the person concerned about Friday is the head of HR. She cannot maintain a professional working relationship with the individual because he has breached a sense of trust she required from him. All she can now imagine is him thinking about her in a not so professional manner. The position required utmost integrity and the combination of above and the details in the emails removed any confidence by the board. Additional facts were around non performance of key functional responsibilities that really question what the person has been doing since they arrived. thank you all for your comments, always good to see other views. If there were performance issues already, an incident like this, along with evidence in emails, would likely tip it over the edge and make the situation untenable for him to continue. He certainly choose the wrong person to mess with in the form of Head of HR!! Glad it is all resolved Sustain as these things can be particularly nasty hanging over people at work! Although he may well claim unfair dismissal!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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