Parley Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I don't think it's possible to prevent people boarding a ship and eventually ending up in Australian waters, unless the Australian Navy were to patrol international waters and to do what?, board or tow boats about to cross into Australian waters?. What then do you do with the people on those boats? Well that is exactly what both sides are trying to do. Stop people boarding these boats in the first place. The PNG solution may just do it. The trouble with your humane, speedy, on-shore processing and quick resettlement is that you will actually encourage a massive increase in boats. Exactly the opposite of what is needed. We need a deterrent not an encouragement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Well that is exactly what both sides are trying to do. Stop people boarding these boats in the first place.The PNG solution may just do it. The trouble with your humane, speedy, on-shore processing and quick resettlement is that you will actually encourage a massive increase in boats. Exactly the opposite of what is needed. We need a deterrent not an encouragement. I think desperate people will go to any lengths to secure safety for themselves and their families, and a largely safe, prosperous, democratic country like Australia represents a safe haven for them. That being so, I think even with the PNG 'solution' in place, many will risk this option if the alternative is oppression or murder in their country of origin. I guess ultimately it depends upon how you regard the people on these boats. If you see them largely as economic migrants come to under-cut Australian workers or to access Centrelink benefits then you're unlikely to be sympathetic to what they've been through. If, like myself, you think the majority are genuinely fleeing from persecution, then you're more likely to expect a wealthy first-world country like Australia to try and identify a safe and humane way of establishing what to do with these people. Giving them 'a fair go' as it were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flossybeth Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 The numbers are not negligible - over 1,000 people have drowned trying to get to Australia by boat. I'm sure that Australia as a nation isn't against helping genuine asylum seekers and refugees, I think this new policy is to deter people from getting on boats owned and operated by people who have very few morals, willing to ditch them into the sea at the first sight of a naval vessel. On a per capita basis Australia takes it's fair share of immigrants per year - and for those who reckon there are "boundless plains to share" should we send those asylum seekers out into the outback and see how they get on - because that's where all the space is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flossybeth Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Selfish world we live in cal....I'm alright jack is the norm, I am sure my grandparents grew up in a nicer more tolerant world. Depending on how old your grandparents are/where - I'm sure that through the '60s there was huge discrimination against people from the Caribbean who moved to the UK looking for the a good future, they couldn't find rooms to rent, public places were segregated and on and on.... and go back just a few decades earlier and we have WWII - fought (in simple terms) because one man didn't like an entire religion, not too sure where the tolerance was? Perhaps a better sense of community, so long as you'd grown up in that community...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 (edited) Its the wet idiots in Britian that ruined it by letting in all and sundry. End of the day an asylum seeker should go to the nearest safe country. no matter where you are the UK is an Island as is Australia and also surrounded by other safe countries. As a result both should not accept any as all are basically economic migrants. The problem with these boats is that its a small number, what the ozzies need to worry about is the ones coming over on a plane as that is 1000's more than a couple of boat loads Using PNG is a good message and I think its a good and bold move, sadly it wont work as they will get in other ways un noticed until 10 years in the future and the ozzies will find all the serivces being used on foreigners when there own people need help like what has happened in the UK. Edited July 23, 2013 by dustyroad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 not visited png or where my clients come from but after googling and speaking to colleagues from png it doesn't sound great, torture, rapes, death penalty possibly brought back to control to huge issues with violence...after suffering torture and trauma in the country of origin I wouldn't want to re traumatised by the goings on png... In truth I think that's the point of the policy. It's a deterrent, they might have second thoughts if they aren't going to make it to the Aus. If it stops people getting on boats then job done. I'm sure PNG will get millions for doing this btw which will, hopefully, improve the lifestyle available for a lot of ordinary PNG citizens, as well as providing a safe environment for asylum seekers. If they are truly looking for a new start in a new place then give PNG a go. You never know they might like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 .....unfortunately the real story of asylum seekers and refugees is ............far from common knowledge in what has become fearful, bigoted society. ........when faced with this issue... ......and our politicians like that ..............we need to refocus on the truths....... ...... it is not illegal to seek asylum ........and not all the world's people live in safe and civilised places,...... .........by constantly useing the word......illegal....... .........it incites fear ..........and anger.... .........time we looked past politician and media dramatics...... .........at the truth ........for many desperately seeking...... .........what many take for granted.........IMO.......tink x I wrote in another thread tink that the legal/illegal thing does not matter one jot. People know it's wrong that that many are coming and it's getting worse by the day, something has to be done, Christmas Island must be full to overflowing and the costs of thinking up new areas for asylum seekers to be housed, until they get processed is phenomenal. That's without paying for the riots, wrecking of whatever the government put them in, force feeding people on hunger strike, trying to keep the different ethnic mixes apart in the camps so there isn't trouble. They can't even get on with each other in there so what chance once they're in the community? The truth is a lot of people are afraid that eventually something will happen here like the soldier getting hacked to death in the UK. They don't want it and may as well try to prevent it now. I know this is drawing a long bow but I was working at Holsworthy a while ago, it's Western Sydney near Liverpool. We went for lunch in a shopping centre there and read in the paper the next day that there had been a fight in a barbers shop in the centre. That night there was a drive by shooting and a guy was taken to hospital, luckily not too badly injured. Turned out that the whole thing had blown up about an argument about Syria. One old guy had slapped another old guy and then one of thems son had decided he would go out that night and shoot the other old guy. He got the wrong house and shot someone else. This is the stuff we don't want to see in Aus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I think it still is. The perception being for some White British immigrants that Australia is a country where ethnic minorities " know their place," to quote a prospective migrant I met in the UK earlier this year. I know that many on these forums angrily refute complaints about Australian racism, but this issue keeps on recurring as a discussion topic on these forums. The Australian Prime Minister using 'the boats' in an attempt to outflank his opposite number to win an election looks pretty tawdry. It's a selling point because people equate that to what England and the UK used to be like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 People can be upset all they like but the hidden majority will be right behind Kev. The populace seldom dictate policy to such an extent. Of course all sorts of issues from taxation to school fees and certain welfare payments to medibank gap would be unpopular among the masses if allow to be aired to such an extent as the asylum seeker issue. It takes statesman like quality to raise above the populist shrill and actually lead the country. Neither party in Australia can provide such a leader. By the way most Aussies would more than likely support a massive reduction in the historically high legal immigration rate as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 It's a selling point because people equate that to what England and the UK used to be like. They may well do but as we all know there is no going back.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 ......the attitude of some saddens me...............we read on here the reasons some cannot settle.......they miss family and friends......so return..... .......the search for familiarity in food and culture........ .........or have found a contentment.........in a lucky country..... ..........a choice of somewhere to call home......and embrace the difference..... .........yet cannot show compassion and want to help improve the predicament...... .........of a people forced to leave their homeland......with little or no chance of returning or perhaps wanting to.... ........a people taking a chance .......a risk.........forsaking all they have...... .........just for a chance at life....... .........homeless means so much more than no dwelling place...... ..........and must be a truly tragic place to be......... That's all fair enough tink but if they are really only after "improve the predicament...... .........of a people forced to leave their homeland......with little or no chance of returning or perhaps wanting to.... ........a people taking a chance .......a risk.........forsaking all they have...... .........just for a chance at life....... .........homeless means so much more than no dwelling place" What's wrong with that dwelling place being PNG rather than Aus and try and improve their predicament there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Think about it for once.....years ago our grandparents looked out for one another.....if there was a problem your street got together...if a women went into labour neighbours would look after the women's other kids....it was a far more caring country than the selfish I am alright and stuff the rest society we live in today.thatcher was an evil cow and I opened a bottle when she kicked the bucket.. She did so much harm to this country...she made it...I am alright jack..and &&&& the rest. tbh Perthbum I don't think it's changed that much. I could see the same sort of thing happening now, with neighbours looking out for each other, looking after peoples kids for them. We've had friends look after our kids a few times as we don't have family here and it's surprising who steps up when you are desperate. I'm with you on the Maggie years but in general people still look out for each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 [/b]I think the solution has to be a humane and speedy assessment process which takes place on Australian soil and not in a country which Australia warns it's own citizens against travelling to. Otherwise you're putting already traumatised people in a situation where they run the risk of being further traumatised. After a fair assessment, a proportion of those seeking asylum will probably be found to not merit it and should be returned to their country of origin, the remainder then need the requisite assistance to rebuild their lives in safety. There are financial costs of course to the assessment and establishment of asylum-seekers as well as to to returning unsuccessful claimants, but the PNG solution will come at a cost too, and more than a financial one. In a perfect World Endless, this is how it should and would work. Problem is if a decision goes against the asylum seekers they don't just go fair cop I'll have to go back then and let someone who deserves it get in. There is an army of lawyers, Human Rights advocates, UN officials, years of protests and appeals, whilst all time having to find room for new arrivals. Just about everyone I know says if only the processing could be done quicker, Like a few weeks, there wouldn't be a problem in the first place, Christmas Island would be a revolving door and the ones that should be getting in would be. Unfortunately it's not that simple is it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 There is no need to 'stop the boats' - it has just become a national obsession. The numbers involved are negligible - Australia takes relatively few refugees and could take a lot more. Australian society would hardly know they were here. It also takes far longer to process them than other countries. Like the White Australia Policy, this seems like a good idea at the time to some people, but decades in the future this will be another shameful episode in Australia's history. But when a country is founded on genocide, xenophobia is ingrained in its DNA, sadly... Australian society would hardly know they were here. Go and have a look around Western Sydney. You might change your mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I wrote in another thread tink that the legal/illegal thing does not matter one jot. People know it's wrong that that many are coming and it's getting worse by the day, something has to be done, Christmas Island must be full to overflowing and the costs of thinking up new areas for asylum seekers to be housed, until they get processed is phenomenal. That's without paying for the riots, wrecking of whatever the government put them in, force feeding people on hunger strike, trying to keep the different ethnic mixes apart in the camps so there isn't trouble. They can't even get on with each other in there so what chance once they're in the community? The truth is a lot of people are afraid that eventually something will happen here like the soldier getting hacked to death in the UK. They don't want it and may as well try to prevent it now. I know this is drawing a long bow but I was working at Holsworthy a while ago, it's Western Sydney near Liverpool. We went for lunch in a shopping centre there and read in the paper the next day that there had been a fight in a barbers shop in the centre. That night there was a drive by shooting and a guy was taken to hospital, luckily not too badly injured. Turned out that the whole thing had blown up about an argument about Syria. One old guy had slapped another old guy and then one of thems son had decided he would go out that night and shoot the other old guy. He got the wrong house and shot someone else. This is the stuff we don't want to see in Aus. I'm afraid it does matter and matter greatly when a nation revokes a legal agreement in order to gain the populist vote in an attempt to win an election. If a government doesn't respect international laws it has signed up to, how can they be trusted not to change or not recognise other points of law in a country that has no clear constitution? If Carr, the Foreign Minister is not speaking with a folk tongue, then 90% or more will be found not to be refugees and returned to source anyway. I think most are aware it isn't true and Australia instead of coming up with creative decisions passes the buck to one of the world's poorest counties. Rather a loss of face in the neighbourhood for Australia in what is clearly race based policies not to say a tremendous waste of money for Australian taxpayers. Australia's foreign aid budget being focused on this issue at the cost of other deserving countries. I realise that the punters go along with knee jerk panic solutions to complicated issues still doesn't make it right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Australian society would hardly know they were here. Go and have a look around Western Sydney. You might change your mind. What's the fascination with Western Sydney? It is not Australia only a part of and has had a multi cultural population for a considerable time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 They may well do but as we all know there is no going back.... No, there is no going back for the UK but Aus is not quite as bad as the UK yet and hopefully the border protection rules will keep it that way for a few years yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 In a perfect World Endless, this is how it should and would work. Problem is if a decision goes against the asylum seekers they don't just go fair cop I'll have to go back then and let someone who deserves it get in. There is an army of lawyers, Human Rights advocates, UN officials, years of protests and appeals, whilst all time having to find room for new arrivals. Just about everyone I know says if only the processing could be done quicker, Like a few weeks, there wouldn't be a problem in the first place, Christmas Island would be a revolving door and the ones that should be getting in would be. Unfortunately it's not that simple is it. Nothing is simple, unless your Rudd making policy on the hoof of course. Processing has only just resumed for those arriving since August last year so hardly an issue. Several hundred plus Sri Lankans have been returned, regardless of processing. So not a excuse. It is used as an excuse. I personally prefer to live in a country that does allow the right of appeal in the legal process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 No, there is no going back for the UK but Aus is not quite as bad as the UK yet and hopefully the border protection rules will keep it that way for a few years yet. Depending on how bad one considers the UK to be. The situation will always be different with UK under law having to allow free access to all EU members. Which include a lot of East Europeans people there bitch about. Of course the UK has asylum seekers claiming refuge as well. Same law applies if not refugees then are sent back. UK has a long association with complaining about immigration so little new there. Tabloid press keeps the fear well fed. Australia, being an immigrant country, takes the rich and educated from Asia, depriving in cases those countries of the skills that could be used there so can hardly be in all fairness,spitting the dummy and misrepresent the situation when asylum seekers seek refuge in numbers smaller than most developed countries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 That's all fair enough tink but if they are really only after "improve the predicament...... .........of a people forced to leave their homeland......with little or no chance of returning or perhaps wanting to.... ........a people taking a chance .......a risk.........forsaking all they have...... .........just for a chance at life....... .........homeless means so much more than no dwelling place" What's wrong with that dwelling place being PNG rather than Aus and try and improve their predicament there. I think what is wrong with PNG has been clearly outlined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 In truth I think that's the point of the policy. It's a deterrent, they might have second thoughts if they aren't going to make it to the Aus. If it stops people getting on boats then job done. I'm sure PNG will get millions for doing this btw which will, hopefully, improve the lifestyle available for a lot of ordinary PNG citizens, as well as providing a safe environment for asylum seekers. If they are truly looking for a new start in a new place then give PNG a go. You never know they might like it. Papua New Guinea - If you don't love it, leave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 In truth I think that's the point of the policy. It's a deterrent, they might have second thoughts if they aren't going to make it to the Aus. If it stops people getting on boats then job done. I'm sure PNG will get millions for doing this btw which will, hopefully, improve the lifestyle available for a lot of ordinary PNG citizens, as well as providing a safe environment for asylum seekers. If they are truly looking for a new start in a new place then give PNG a go. You never know they might like it. The only deterrent if Australia feels it can no longer fulfil its legal role in accepting asylum seekers have the right to apply for refugee status within its borders is to man up and withdraw from the treaty. That would make it very clear to all Australia has no obligation. Remember though even Malaysia, not a member still has far more asylum seekers in that country living under duress. Few things are clear cut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Not a solution that will stop the boats. It would actually encourage a massive increase in boats. Again it is not illegal for people to claim asylum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 What's the fascination with Western Sydney? It is not Australia only a part of and has had a multi cultural population for a considerable time. No fascination, just that the other poster said Australian society would hardly know they were here. I was just pointing out that they would change their minds if they went to Western Sydney. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 The numbers are not negligible - over 1,000 people have drowned trying to get to Australia by boat. I'm sure that Australia as a nation isn't against helping genuine asylum seekers and refugees, I think this new policy is to deter people from getting on boats owned and operated by people who have very few morals, willing to ditch them into the sea at the first sight of a naval vessel. On a per capita basis Australia takes it's fair share of immigrants per year - and for those who reckon there are "boundless plains to share" should we send those asylum seekers out into the outback and see how they get on - because that's where all the space is? Sadly the Federal Government doesn't have a lot of morals either. Pandering to the populist and racist vote, where as clear thinking was called for instead of paternalist behaviour towards neighbouring impoverished countries in the form of bribery. I don't recall anywhere stated that everyone judged a refugee must be granted PR straight away. If third world countries can house millions of people I'm sure Australia has the land available to do the same. People awaiting asylum decisions could work in remote regions, especially up north helping to develop the country. There are dozens of scenarios that could be looked at. On the other hand Australia could leave the convention and wipe its hands on the matter legally. Unlikely they would be the first to do so but the option is there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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