mj&db Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 (edited) Just got the email assigning us with a Case Officer! Wahoo! I was not expecting it to move this fast! Forgot to add a few qualification certs (whoops!) but they are also asking for additional evidence of employment. Do you think the comment below implies that they will not class him as a Carpenter until he completed his apprenticeship? "Detailed work references showing the date that you were employed as a Carpenter and had completed your apprenticeship." He has been doing chippy work for over 9 years but just didn't get the qualification straight away. Carpentry is one of those trades where "recognised" qualifications aren't a pre-requisite...plenty of people have just experience but he just decided after a 6-yrs that it would be good to get it recognised (esp as we were planning to move here)! Hopefully I am just reading in to it because if this is the case he will only be seen as having 3-yrs experience as a "qualified" carpenter and put us 5 points below!?!?! I attached work references from his current Australian employer (where he has been employed for 1 year) and his previous UK employer (where he was employed for 8 years). Both of these references show dates, job title and duties; they are on headed paper and signed by the Owners of both companies. I also attached copies payslips and tax forms. He also comfortably passed the vetassess. If they want more what additional evidence could I give? I don't think we have anything else?! Edited June 10, 2012 by mj&db Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mj&db Posted June 10, 2012 Author Share Posted June 10, 2012 BUMP* Anyone know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparky123 Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Hi , did he not need to send away any paperwork prior to sitting his vetassess exam ? I know I had to send away evidence to them before they would let me sit the exam , so if he sat the vetassess exam then surely he must have the right amount of paperwork. Does he not have any trade certificate or old college papers ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mj&db Posted June 10, 2012 Author Share Posted June 10, 2012 (edited) Yeah he we have all the apprenticeship paperwork. We sent them off when he did the vetassess but I forgot to add them when I submitted then visa. I don't think there is any question about him being a carpenter though....the comment from our Case Officer seems to be questioning the number of years he has been doing it and I am concerned that they will not class his pre-qualification experience....although I have just found this which gives me some hope.... "This occupation has a level of skill commensurate with the qualifications and experience in Australia of AQF Certificate III including at least two years of on the job training, or AQF Certificate IV (ANZSCO Skill Level 3). At least three years of relevant experience may substitute for the formal qualifications listed above. In some instances relevant experience and/or on-the-job training may be required in addition to the formal qualification" He has been doing carpentry for nearly 9 years....he just did it a bit back to front! 4-yrs carpentry work with no formal qualifications 2-yrs carpentry work whilst studying for an advance apprenticeship part time. 3-yrs carpentry work with a formal qualification. He went to College because we knew we would be looking to moving to Aus eventually and thought it would be good to get his skills officially recognised (that's before we knew an NVQ wouldn't be recognised here and he would have to do the vetassess anyway!!) I may just be completely reading in to it! I known to be a complete worrier!! Edited June 10, 2012 by mj&db Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimsdu Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Sorry it does not count according to my research my OH is a carpenter too we wanted to claim for 8yrs but have to apply for 5 as its POST qualification that counts. My OH was also in apprenticeship whilst at college and was a chippy long before he got the qualifications. I spent alot of time looking into this as we have enough points with 8yrs exp with a 7 ielts score but OH needs band 8s with only 5yr experience we are lodging now only POST experience as i have been told they do not accept apprenticeships as its pre qualificattion. Let me know if you hear different please as we can lodge now if its counted rather than OH having to do ielts again at end of june thus meaning we beat the deadline. By the way my agent does not know the answer to this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimsdu Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Sorry to be the bearer of bad news i just copied and pasted this of the Immi site where i frantically looked to find the answers for myself last week. A: To be eligible to claim points for work experience applicants must have gained their work experience under the following conditions: work experience has been gained post qualification (traineeship and apprenticeship years are not included); work experience has been in paid employment; the applicant worked at least 20 hours per week in the specified occupation; and the applicant has performed tasks that correspond with the ANZSCO descriptor for the occupation in questions before they would be considered to have been ‘employed’ in a skilled occupation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mj&db Posted June 10, 2012 Author Share Posted June 10, 2012 (edited) The more I read it though this paragraph though the more I think we have a chance....it is very grey though! "This occupation has a level of skill commensurate with the qualifications and experience in Australia of AQF Certificate III including at least two years of on the job training, or AQF Certificate IV (ANZSCO Skill Level 3)" At least three years of relevant experience may substitute for the formal qualifications listed above. In some instances relevant experience and/or on-the-job training may be required in addition to the formal qualification" If you break it up..... "At least three years of relevant experience may substitute for the formal qualifications listed above" It doesn't state that this relevant experience option can only be used if you don't have a qualification. Just because you decide to do what you think is the right thing and get the qualification later on in your career shouldn't mean any experience before that should be wiped off your record! 6 years of experience prior to getting a piece of paper (which isn't a pre-requsite in the UK to be a Carpenter) should count as relevant experience. If he hadn't done the qualification at all he would be classed as having 9 years relevant experience. But instead he has 6 years relevant experience before qualified, a qualification then 3yrs post qualified experience....surely this is enough..... Edited June 10, 2012 by mj&db Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimsdu Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Honestly i have gone back and forth on this for a few weeks... We are both in the same situation except we do have 6yrs post qualification but will need a band 8 in ielts to make up points. We decided to NOT risk lodging our application including apprenticeship etc as nobody could give us a 100% correct answer regarding if it counts. Please keep me posted as we would really like to lodge NOW rather than OH having to sit the Ielts on June 30th meaning we miss the deadline of July 1st. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimsdu Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Please read the thread I started last week.... http://www.pomsinoz.com/forum/migration-issues/151772-need-advice-please-could-mean-beating-deadline.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mj&db Posted June 10, 2012 Author Share Posted June 10, 2012 Sorry to be the bearer of bad news i just copied and pasted this of the Immi site where i frantically looked to find the answers for myself last week. A: To be eligible to claim points for work experience applicants must have gained their work experience under the following conditions: work experience has been gained post qualification (traineeship and apprenticeship years are not included); work experience has been in paid employment; the applicant worked at least 20 hours per week in the specified occupation; and the applicant has performed tasks that correspond with the ANZSCO descriptor for the occupation in questions before they would be considered to have been ‘employed’ in a skilled occupation. Yeah I saw this but this is quite general. Have a look at the paragraph I just quoted which relates specifically to Carpentry. I have a Case Officer assigned now so fingers crossed I will be able to give you a bit more detail soon.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimsdu Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Good luck and keep me posted ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mj&db Posted June 10, 2012 Author Share Posted June 10, 2012 (edited) Will do. kimsdu - Just re-read your thread and our situation might be seen as a bit different. You are talking about claiming your OH's on the job experience whilst doing his qual yeah? The years I am trying to claim are the years my OH did as a carpenter before he even started any qualification. Also think the use of the word "substitute" is interesting......if you took the meaning of this word "one that takes the place of another" could you in theory forget the qualification and just ask them to base the application on the numbers of years experience..... What happens when you question the Case Officer? Do they get annoyed?! Don't want a black mark against our name! Also can we transfer to another visa if they are adamant we don't have enough points. We could probably get my husbands employer to sponsor him permanently but just wanted to try and do it on our own... Edited June 10, 2012 by mj&db Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wookie Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Can anyone help me me? I am in the same boat as a lot of people. I have been working in the electrical industry for 14 years. I completed my City and Guilds 2360 parts 1 and 2 9 years ago and started getting paid as a fully qualified electrician straight after that. I did not do my NVQ3 until 2010 though. I have work references on headed paper and payslips stretching back 9 years. However, after reading your threads I am wondering if that will count as qualified work experience as my NVQ3 is only 2 years old and it seems they will look at that more so than evidence of pay and employment. Although my employer saw me and payed me as a qualified electrician, the Australian government might not. Would I be wasting my time going for experience points? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mj&db Posted June 10, 2012 Author Share Posted June 10, 2012 (edited) Can anyone help me me? I am in the same boat as a lot of people. I have been working in the electrical industry for 14 years. I completed my City and Guilds 2360 parts 1 and 2 9 years ago and started getting paid as a fully qualified electrician straight after that. I did not do my NVQ3 until 2010 though. I have work references on headed paper and payslips stretching back 9 years. However, after reading your threads I am wondering if that will count as qualified work experience as my NVQ3 is only 2 years old and it seems they will look at that more so than evidence of pay and employment. Although my employer saw me and payed me as a qualified electrician, the Australian government might not. Would I be wasting my time going for experience points? I honestly don't believe they can wipe XX amount of years of experience off your records just because you decide to do what you think is the right thing and get a qualification later on in your career. There are plenty of tradies that have no qualifications at all....(although I am guessing to be an electrician legally you need some!!) I am going question this sentence if they query us (although note this relates specifically to carpenters): "At least three years of relevant experience may substitute for the formal qualifications listed above" It doesn't state that this relevant experience option can only be used if you don't have a qualification. The word substitute means "one that takes the place of another" so could you in theory substitute the qualification and just ask them to base the application on the numbers of years experience.....my other half would have 9 years if this is the case..... Edited June 10, 2012 by mj&db Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mj&db Posted June 10, 2012 Author Share Posted June 10, 2012 This is the wording for Electricians...pretty similar: "This occupation has a level of skill commensurate with the qualifications and experience in Australia of AQF Certificate III including at least two years of on-the-job training, or AQF Certificate IV (ANZSCO Skill Level 3). At least three years of relevant experience may substitute for the formal qualifications listed above. In some instances relevant experience and/or on-the-job training may be required in addition to the formal qualification." http://www.immi.gov.au/asri/occupations/e/electrician-general.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wookie Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Thanks for the reply. Reading that it looks like my experience would be accepted for points but it is still not 100% certain. When I started out, having the qualifications I had and a boss who knew you could do the work was enough but the last few years over here it has got really strict with paper work, which is why I done my NVQ in the end. Wish I'd done it a lot sooner! Good luck with your application. I am going to try to find a phone number from an immigration department or government office in Australia, there must be a way of finding out for sure. Will post anything I find out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mj&db Posted June 10, 2012 Author Share Posted June 10, 2012 (edited) I had and a boss who knew you could do the work was enough but the last few years over here it has got really strict with paper work, which is why I done my NVQ in the end. VERY true! My OH thought getting his skills recognised was the right thing to do......took him 2yrs to complete the standard NVQ (he went on to do an advanced after) too as he did it part time on top of his permanent, full time, full blown carpentry job that he'd been doing for 4yrs prior.... Edited June 10, 2012 by mj&db Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ladyw Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Hi We have just lodged our visa and our situations sounds similar. My husband is a Carpenter who didnt get hisqualification untila f ew years ago but he has 12 years experience. Our agent has stated that they cound the first 5 years as your apprenticeship (and TRA has said the same). You then jsut need to ensure you can prove you were in paid employement as a joiner (we have used tax returns and references). We have only jsut lodged so I will keep you posted on how things work out as I cant beleive they would jsut wipe out years of epxeirence when you can prove it. Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mj&db Posted June 10, 2012 Author Share Posted June 10, 2012 (edited) Hi We have just lodged our visa and our situations sounds similar. My husband is a Carpenter who didnt get hisqualification untila f ew years ago but he has 12 years experience. Our agent has stated that they cound the first 5 years as your apprenticeship (and TRA has said the same). You then jsut need to ensure you can prove you were in paid employement as a joiner (we have used tax returns and references). We have only jsut lodged so I will keep you posted on how things work out as I cant beleive they would jsut wipe out years of epxeirence when you can prove it. Lisa Seems there is a few of us. Such a grey area. How can they count an apprenticeship as 5yrs though....?? It only took 2yrs PT on the job for my OH to qualify? And this paragraph on the immi web for carpenters seems to only imply 2yrs.... "This occupation has a level of skill commensurate with the qualifications and experience in Australia of AQF Certificate III including at least two years of on the job training, or AQF Certificate IV (ANZSCO Skill Level 3)" At least three years of relevant experience may substitute for the formal qualifications listed above. In some instances relevant experience and/or on-the-job training may be required in addition to the formal qualification" Edited June 10, 2012 by mj&db Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrussell Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Honestly i have gone back and forth on this for a few weeks...We are both in the same situation except we do have 6yrs post qualification but will need a band 8 in ielts to make up points. We decided to NOT risk lodging our application including apprenticeship etc as nobody could give us a 100% correct answer regarding if it counts. Please keep me posted as we would really like to lodge NOW rather than OH having to sit the Ielts on June 30th meaning we miss the deadline of July 1st. Good luck Have you consulted a registered migration agent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrussell Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Yeah I saw this but this is quite general. Have a look at the paragraph I just quoted which relates specifically to Carpentry. I have a Case Officer assigned now so fingers crossed I will be able to give you a bit more detail soon.... May I suggest you do not rely on information posted on the DIAC website? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mj&db Posted June 11, 2012 Author Share Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) May I suggest you do not rely on information posted on the DIAC website? Thanks for your comment but I am not sure what you mean by this? What information do I rely on? Edited June 11, 2012 by mj&db Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimsdu Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Can you call your Case officer ? Also if you are in OZ already and he is already working why is he doing a visa? Sorry just thought i would ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimsdu Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 I wish someone knew the answer to this as we could lodge our visa now rather than waiting for OH to get 8s on IELTS taking us past July 13th.. Has anybody ever been granted a visa PRE Qualification? Anyone We are on the edge here as we are sitting on enough points if so and an extra 6 yrs work experience!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mj&db Posted June 12, 2012 Author Share Posted June 12, 2012 We are on a 457 visa through my employer but wanted a bit more security so applied for PR independently on my husbands skills. Good news is today our case officer confirmed that based on qual & exp we had met the pass mark. They didn't say how many points we passed with though. We put in for the full 8yrs (he has 9yrs inc the 2.5yr course he did in the middle) but even if they took off the time for the course that would've brought us down to the 5yr points & right on the pass mark. Now for meds & police checks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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