Lindor Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 I got an email last night from my letting agent asking if the incoming tenant could redecorate the bedrooms, in neutral colours, put new carpets in the bedrooms and retile the bathroom!!! The carpets would be left if she moves on and all work would be done by the appropriate tradesman. I haven't replied yet as I was a bit shocked! She is a longstanding tenant with them and is only moving as she wants a garden for her little one. To be honest, the bathroom tiles could do with being changed, they're nice but not very well done (previous owner) I painted the bedrooms before I left and had the carpets professionally cleaned. I'm going home on Monday I could possibly meet with her, and have some input re. the tiles, but I'm really not sure what to do! Anyone got thoughts or experience of this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 I'd go for it. So long as you agree the tiles and you get to know who does the work etc, can't see it's a problem. Same re carpet and paint. She's not knocking down walls or re doing the kitchen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calNgary Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 If she is using qualified tradies i dont see an issue, especially if she is wanting neutral colours. Good on her for asking permission first. Cal x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindor Posted April 10, 2014 Author Share Posted April 10, 2014 I'd go for it. So long as you agree the tiles and you get to know who does the work etc, can't see it's a problem. Same re carpet and paint. She's not knocking down walls or re doing the kitchen. Downstairs is fine, new kitchen after a flood, doors, windows, plaster and floors were all replaced and redecorated. I suppose it shows the difference upstairs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenon4017 Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 I got an email last night from my letting agent asking if the incoming tenant could redecorate the bedrooms, in neutral colours, put new carpets in the bedrooms and retile the bathroom!!! The carpets would be left if she moves on and all work would be done by the appropriate tradesman. I haven't replied yet as I was a bit shocked! She is a longstanding tenant with them and is only moving as she wants a garden for her little one. To be honest, the bathroom tiles could do with being changed, they're nice but not very well done (previous owner) I painted the bedrooms before I left and had the carpets professionally cleaned. I'm going home on Monday I could possibly meet with her, and have some input re. the tiles, but I'm really not sure what to do! Anyone got thoughts or experience of this? Offer to pay for the tiling. Painting and carpets are down to her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loopylu Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 Offer to pay for the tiling. Painting and carpets are down to her. As a lawyer, before allowing her to do any work I would draw up a short agreement in which you set out your conditions for the work she wants to do (eg names of contractors who will do the work, details of and limits on the work that may be done etc). Also, I would include an indemnity from her in your favour so that if the contractors cause any damage to your property then she is responsible to you for the cost of putting it right. This is because you won't have any direct contractual relationship with the contractors (she will be employing them) so it will be up to her to pursue them for repairing damage/seeking costs if things go wrong. This is the only way you can ensure that you have any control over their work (ie you make her responsible to you financially if they screw up). You should also probably state that she is doing the work at her own cost and expects no contribution from you. As there may be no consideration on your part (ie you are not giving anything of value in return for her doing the work) you should probably enter into the agreement as a deed poll which means that both of your signatures need to be witnessed for the agreement to be enforceable at law. Check with your real estate agent to see if they can provide you with a draft agreement/deed poll. I know this may sound overly legal, but you may be taking a risk letting someone do all this work without a formal agreement in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 How nice to have a tenant who wants to invest in your property. I would swap her for the losers that trashed my house in a heartbeat. I really wouldn't get overly legal, a bit cheeky when she is improving your property. She is not knocking walls down, she is changing colour schemes and making other cosmetic changes, there really isn't that much scope for things to go wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northshorepom Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 As a lawyer, before allowing her to do any work I would draw up a short agreement in which you set out your conditions for the work she wants to do (eg names of contractors who will do the work, details of and limits on the work that may be done etc). Also, I would include an indemnity from her in your favour so that if the contractors cause any damage to your property then she is responsible to you for the cost of putting it right. This is because you won't have any direct contractual relationship with the contractors (she will be employing them) so it will be up to her to pursue them for repairing damage/seeking costs if things go wrong. This is the only way you can ensure that you have any control over their work (ie you make her responsible to you financially if they screw up). You should also probably state that she is doing the work at her own cost and expects no contribution from you. As there may be no consideration on your part (ie you are not giving anything of value in return for her doing the work) you should probably enter into the agreement as a deed poll which means that both of your signatures need to be witnessed for the agreement to be enforceable at law. Check with your real estate agent to see if they can provide you with a draft agreement/deed poll. I know this may sound overly legal, but you may be taking a risk letting someone do all this work without a formal agreement in place. From a legal PoV I think this is correct, but I would make the agreements as simple and "light touch" as possible. The important bits (IMO) are the indemnity and the scope of the work. Who is actually doing the work shouldn't be such a concern, just ensure the agreement say to use professional contractors The reason I say this is as a (former) renter, if I approached a landlord and offered to do this sort of improvement work at my cost, I would be OK if they asked me to sign up to some simple conditions, but if I was met with a barrage of disclaimers and a fat contract, I would be inclined to just not bother and try and find somewhere else to live This sounds like a tenant who wants to stay long term and wants to look after the property, which is exactly what you want. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth and all that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 Would be good to have a meeting with her and see what she has in mind. If you know her pretty well and trust her it might all work out fine without any legal documents being drawn up. I find that as soon as that kind of thing gets mentioned goodwill and friendship goes out the window and costs go up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jac2011 Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 I suppose if she is willing to do the work to make the house more suited to her own taste she is also looking at staying long term which in itself must be a good reassurance for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loopylu Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 From a legal PoV I think this is correct, but I would make the agreements as simple and "light touch" as possible. The important bits (IMO) are the indemnity and the scope of the work. Who is actually doing the work shouldn't be such a concern, just ensure the agreement say to use professional contractors The reason I say this is as a (former) renter, if I approached a landlord and offered to do this sort of improvement work at my cost, I would be OK if they asked me to sign up to some simple conditions, but if I was met with a barrage of disclaimers and a fat contract, I would be inclined to just not bother and try and find somewhere else to live This sounds like a tenant who wants to stay long term and wants to look after the property, which is exactly what you want. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth and all that North Shore Pom I agree that the agreement should be short and simple. However, proceeding without any agreement is, in my professional opinion, a recipe for disaster. My sister trusted tenants with improvements etc and then they tried to sell the property out from under her. It cost over 25K sterling in legal fees and a very stressful court case to sort it out. She trusted them as they professed to have the same values but they were totally evil and blighted her and her family's life for the best part of 3 years. As a non-contentious contract lawyer, I get fed up with being asked by clients to advise on messes when a simple written agreement up front could have avoided a lot of issues.... Litigation fees are much more expensive than the cost of a simple commercial agreement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chortlepuss Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 I agreed to let a tenant redecorate a bedroom in a neutral colour and she (badly) painted it an iffy pink!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 North Shore Pom I agree that the agreement should be short and simple. However, proceeding without any agreement is, in my professional opinion, a recipe for disaster. My sister trusted tenants with improvements etc and then they tried to sell the property out from under her. It cost over 25K sterling in legal fees and a very stressful court case to sort it out. She trusted them as they professed to have the same values but they were totally evil and blighted her and her family's life for the best part of 3 years. As a non-contentious contract lawyer, I get fed up with being asked by clients to advise on messes when a simple written agreement up front could have avoided a lot of issues.... Litigation fees are much more expensive than the cost of a simple commercial agreement. That is a preposterous rationale for complicating this situation. Or do tell how painting a property transfers the legal title? This tenant just wants to paint and tile. I asked my landlord if I could put blinds up at my cost, I was happy to comply with the landlords specifications. If they had sent anything but the most basic legal document my way, I would have said never mind and moved out just as NSP said. In end my landlord did blinds themselves anyway, if OP expects the person improving their property at own expense to comply with complicated legal agreements, should probably just do the work themselves, particularly if it is a good long term tennt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noworriesmate Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 As a letting agent, I would say that a tenant asking to do works is a relatively common occurrence. The level of works you have mentioned is not that big and if you put in writing what you have agreed the existing tenancy agreement should be enough to mean that you are protected. I would suggest you write back stating that you agree for them to do the works on the basis that there will be an inspection immediately the works they are suggesting are completed and that you reserve the right to say (on your agents recommendation if you cannot go yourself) whether you are happy or not with the standard of work/colours etc and get them to rectify them at their expense if not. This will be enough should things get nasty (which in my experience managing 1200 properties for 15yrs has only happened once). Personally I love these type of tenants - if they are prepared to do this level of work they are obviously planning on staying for the long- term!! NWM p.s. if you are really concerned then ask them to consider using contractors known to the agents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindor Posted April 10, 2014 Author Share Posted April 10, 2014 (edited) Thank you so much everyone for your replies, you've been very helpful, pointing out things I'd not thought of! @snifter I don't have a problem with the redecorating, the tenant has to live with it, I am surprised by her wanting to change the carpets and tiles! They are quite nice @calNgary I will ask that professional contractors are used. It is good that she asked although the property is inspected regularly, so I'm told anyway! @Xenon I can't afford to pay for retiling, and it really doesn't need it, just personal preference. @loopylou thank you so much for your professional insight. Potential damage to the property hadn't occurred to me! I will certainly be taking your advice, maybe a bit diluted! @Rupert Sorry about your house, that's my worst nightmare! I was lucky with the first tenant and this one looks very promising! I take your point about being overly legal, but feel I need some safeguard in place. @northshorepom I would also be put off by a heavy handed legal approach, but I do think I need to ensure my house remains intact. I rented in the distant past and the landlord wouldn't allow decorating because 'girls only paint walls up to where they can reach' he was right, I'd done it myself, I did get it finished off a few weeks later though! @Paul1Perth I don't know the tenant Paul, I don't even think she's moved in yet! I'm drafting an email to the letting agent to say that the tenant can redecorate and change the bedroom carpets but I would like a legal agreement signed by the tenant to the effect, agreeing that professional contractors are used for all the work carried out, any damage to the property is the responsibility of the tenant and must be put right as soon as possible. I would also like to have a final say in the choice of tile, I'm sure they'll be fine given the potential colour scheme, but I don't want to risk the future rentability (??) of my property. I think that sounds reasonable. If anyone disagrees would you let me know why, or if I've missed anything? I am heading home on Monday for a few weeks so maybe I'll meet up with the lady! Thank you again for your input x Edited April 10, 2014 by Lindor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindor Posted April 10, 2014 Author Share Posted April 10, 2014 As a letting agent, I would say that a tenant asking to do works is a relatively common occurrence. The level of works you have mentioned is not that big and if you put in writing what you have agreed the existing tenancy agreement should be enough to mean that you are protected. I would suggest you write back stating that you agree for them to do the works on the basis that there will be an inspection immediately the works they are suggesting are completed and that you reserve the right to say (on your agents recommendation if you cannot go yourself) whether you are happy or not with the standard of work/colours etc and get them to rectify them at their expense if not. This will be enough should things get nasty (which in my experience managing 1200 properties for 15yrs has only happened once). Personally I love these type of tenants - if they are prepared to do this level of work they are obviously planning on staying for the long- term!! NWM p.s. if you are really concerned then ask them to consider using contractors known to the agents I agree about the tenant, she sounds like a landlords dream! I'm worried about my house. It was flooded twice in 6 weeks, 6 months before I moved to Perth and I never got back into it. When I moved, the builders stopped work and I had to go back after 4 months to sort it out. I was so stressed about it I seriously thought about selling it "sold as seen". I can't bear the thought of going through anything remotely like that ever again. Over the top? Probably, but that's the effect the whole situation had on me. I can feel my blood pressure rising just typing this!! Anyway...I think as this lady sounds like a long term tenant, she needs to live in a house she's comfortable in, so I will let her do the work she wants to do, I just need to have a little input and assurances. I will ask that an inspection is carried out when the work is completed. Thank you for your advice @noworriesmate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northshorepom Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 North Shore Pom I agree that the agreement should be short and simple. However, proceeding without any agreement is, in my professional opinion, a recipe for disaster. My sister trusted tenants with improvements etc and then they tried to sell the property out from under her. It cost over 25K sterling in legal fees and a very stressful court case to sort it out. She trusted them as they professed to have the same values but they were totally evil and blighted her and her family's life for the best part of 3 years. As a non-contentious contract lawyer, I get fed up with being asked by clients to advise on messes when a simple written agreement up front could have avoided a lot of issues.... Litigation fees are much more expensive than the cost of a simple commercial agreement. I get that, but there's always a balance to be struck. IME of dealing with lawyers (which I do a lot BTW), they are focused on what happens/who pays/who is protected when things go wrong, whereas the business/ops side of the discussions tends to be focused on contractual mechanisms for making the deal work in the first place. Nothing wrong with that, it is their job. However, there is always a point with any deal when the barriers and protection put up put the whole thing in the "too hard" basket and the deal falls apart That is the risk I was highlighting, whereas you were highlighting the risk of the work going pear-shaped. Since (I think) we are all agreed that this sounds like a great tenant to have (they wouldn't be looking to spend all that money themselves if they weren't planning to stay long term and/or if they didn't care about the place, after all) then the OP, IMO, needs to form a judgement as to how far she wants to push it in terms of trying to protect herself against the possibility of the work going wrong.. I do think we should all remember that there is no such thing as a risk-free letting agreement. Contracts provide financial remedies (sometimes, provided the guilty party can actually pay) in the event of disaster but they don't stop that happening in the first place. Any tenant can trash a property, even if the contract provides sufficient protection and you actually get the money back, it's still a painful and stressful experience trying to obtain recompense. Hence my emphasis on trying to make sure this (on the face of it good) tenant doesn't get scared/p1ssed off. If people aren't comfortable with the risk inherent in letting out their asset to another, they should perhaps stick their money in something safer like a gilt or a protected bank account. The reason I suggested the indemnity/guarantee to correct, the promise to use professional trades and approval over colours (since that affects the value of the asset) are the important parts is because they are the ones that, as a tenant, I'd be happy to sign up to. If I proposed work like this (which, after all, is something that under normal circumstances represents improvement and is a landlord responsibility, so the OP should be benefiting if it'd done well) and a landlord started adding other things too like wanting to approve the actual contractors I was going to use, I think I'd tell them to poke it. But that's just a personal PoV, we don't know how far this particular tenant will go. There's always a balance somewhere. Only the OP and her agents can really judge where that balance lies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northshorepom Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 I'm drafting an email to the letting agent to say that the tenant can redecorate and change the bedroom carpets but I would like a legal agreement signed by the tenant to the effect, agreeing that professional contractors are used for all the work carried out, any damage to the property is the responsibility of the tenant and must be put right as soon as possible. I would also like to have a final say in the choice of tile, I'm sure they'll be fine given the potential colour scheme, but I don't want to risk the future rentability (??) of my property. I think that sounds reasonable. If anyone disagrees would you let me know why, or if I've missed anything? All of that sounds totally reasonable to me. Good luck with it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindor Posted April 11, 2014 Author Share Posted April 11, 2014 All of that sounds totally reasonable to me. Good luck with it Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenon4017 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 @Xenon I can't afford to pay for retiling, and it really doesn't need it, just personal preference. Obviously, there's no point in fixing things that aren't broken. But your statement that you can't afford the tiling is worrying. How much money have you set aside for repairs to the property per year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindor Posted April 11, 2014 Author Share Posted April 11, 2014 (edited) Obviously, there's no point in fixing things that aren't broken. But your statement that you can't afford the tiling is worrying. How much money have you set aside for repairs to the property per year? I have enough money set aside for essential repairs and maintenance. I should've said 'I can't afford to pay for retiling, for the sake of it'. Edited April 11, 2014 by Lindor Sp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindor Posted April 23, 2014 Author Share Posted April 23, 2014 An update if anyones interested I got an email yesterday from the letting agent to say that the prospective tenant has apparently been offered a council house so isn't moving into mine. What they really think is that she, along with a few other of their clients, have been 'poached' by 2 employees who walked out a few weeks ago and set up a new business! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MovingtoTasmania Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 An update if anyones interested I got an email yesterday from the letting agent to say that the prospective tenant has apparently been offered a council house so isn't moving into mine. What they really think is that she, along with a few other of their clients, have been 'poached' by 2 employees who walked out a few weeks ago and set up a new business! Sorry to hear that Lindor. Being in the position of trying to sell my house, it's horrible when you think something's going to happen then it all falls through! Hope you find another tenant soon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindor Posted April 23, 2014 Author Share Posted April 23, 2014 Sorry to hear that Lindor. Being in the position of trying to sell my house, it's horrible when you think something's going to happen then it all falls through! Hope you find another tenant soon! Thank you MTT, they've said there are a couple of interested parties so fingers crossed! Good luck with your sale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MovingtoTasmania Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Thank you MTT, they've said there are a couple of interested parties so fingers crossed! Good luck with your sale I've lost the will where that's concerned.... I've given the current agents notice and am putting it up with another agency as the two buyers that the current agents have found ended up making offers that they couldn't afford! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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