bunbury61 Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 This isn't a post designed to get a reaction ,and then hours of tit for tat posts ,this is just an observation . Labour is all but finished in the short and medium term in Scotland . If Scotland goes independent ,the working class in England will be saying " who represents us",because there is a perception,rightly or wrongly ,that it isn't labour anymore. I can see labour fading as a force,and so can some within the labour party Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 People were writing the Labour obituary in the 80's and the Tory obituary in the 00's. Though I agree that if Scotland does one day gain independence what hope for left-leaning politics in Britain? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 This isn't a post designed to get a reaction ,and then hours of tit for tat posts ,this is just an observation .Labour is all but finished in the short and medium term in Scotland . If Scotland goes independent ,the working class in England will be saying " who represents us",because there is a perception,rightly or wrongly ,that it isn't labour anymore. I can see labour fading as a force,and so can some within the labour party Oh I dare say they will bring back blue labour, and the lib dems will recover. But they will never govern without electrol reform, and they may need ukip to get that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamffc Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 They need to find their identity, which is difficult because the identity they want won't get them elected by the UK population. They mostly had Tony Blair for being 'too tory', but he's the only leader to win them an election in over 40 years. If the unions insist on another Foot, Kinnock, or Miliband they won't get in government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Tony Blair and the likes of Peter Mandelson understood the footballing analogy that you have to have possession of the ball to make something happen. New Labour managed to convince the electorate that they had a sound grip on the public finances so that they could bring in some of their ideas. They were more left wing than many give them credit for. Unfortunately the GFC brought that illusion crashing down. Many people believe that the country's finances would have been in better shape ahead of the GFC if the Tories had been in charge and Labour will have a tough job for a while convincing people that they will not overspend and borrow more than the Tories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srg73 Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Labour are finished for the moment, but of a reply of the 80's but without the ever popular Margaret Thatcher and the slightly popular David Cameron. I believe Cameron won as he was the least hated of the leaders not most popular and turnout was up as people were genuinely scared of Labour getting in! Labour currently fighting ting with the unions, each other etc. No hope for the moment. Labour seem to be the same worldwide, furious about the Queensland government pressuring public sector staff into Union membership. Back to the 70's Queensland goes! S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARYROSE02 Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 This isn't a post designed to get a reaction ,and then hours of tit for tat posts ,this is just an observation .Labour is all but finished in the short and medium term in Scotland . If Scotland goes independent ,the working class in England will be saying " who represents us",because there is a perception,rightly or wrongly ,that it isn't labour anymore. I can see labour fading as a force,and so can some within the labour party[/quote I suppose it partly depends whether the SNP (and the Scottish) people actually want independence, or just more influence and power at Westminster, whether Labour (and Tory) voters in Scotland will stick with the SNP, and whether the Labour can reform itself enough to 'create' another Tony Blair like figure who would appeal to 'Middle England/Wales/Scotland/Northern Ireland?' And the Tories could go the same way as Labour, and Coalition government could become the 'norm' in the UK? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bungo Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 This isn't a post designed to get a reaction ,and then hours of tit for tat posts ,this is just an observation .Labour is all but finished in the short and medium term in Scotland . If Scotland goes independent ,the working class in England will be saying " who represents us",because there is a perception,rightly or wrongly ,that it isn't labour anymore. I can see labour fading as a force,and so can some within the labour party I don't think it is the demise of the party. They will re-group, somebody will emerge from nowhere as a leader and they will get back on track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Labour are finished for the moment, but of a reply of the 80's but without the ever popular Margaret Thatcher and the slightly popular David Cameron. I believe Cameron won as he was the least hated of the leaders not most popular and turnout was up as people were genuinely scared of Labour getting in! Barely. Turnout was up from 65.1% to 66.1% and the Tories only increased their votes by 600,000 despite the Liberals losing 4,400,000 votes. That doesn't indicate people flocking to support the two main parties that would keep Labour out. Labour was down by 700,000 but that was the SNP effect really as they maintained their vote elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunbury61 Posted May 18, 2015 Author Share Posted May 18, 2015 I don't think it is the demise of the party. They will re-group, somebody will emerge from nowhere as a leader and they will get back on track. I wasn't going to put up a 2nd post ,but anyway ..... Labour have to be careful that they don't lose the working class support in the north ,which isca distinct possibility. At the moment they are the "tescos " of British politics . They thought certain areas were a shoe in ....guaranteed ...not any more . My tip ....watch this space ...it has to be a WOMAN ....the women did very well in the debates .,..not Harriet Harman or ed balls wife,Yvette cooper ....but LIZ KENDALL . I don't know much about her ,but women have a way of healing the wounds .....labour need to do something and quick The unions are talking about removing their support from labour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest51810 Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 I don't think they are finished for good but they are a complete mess. In scotland they are blaming everyone but labour. Well most of them are anyway. I'm so glad jim murphy is gone, he was one of the main reasons they went that way. Not exactly the most popular of guys. If he was a good leader then fair enough popularity isn't always needed but he wasn't imo. Is ed milliband still 'Avin' it large in Ibiza? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritChickx Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Barely. Turnout was up from 65.1% to 66.1% and the Tories only increased their votes by 600,000 despite the Liberals losing 4,400,000 votes. That doesn't indicate people flocking to support the two main parties that would keep Labour out. Labour was down by 700,000 but that was the SNP effect really as they maintained their vote elsewhere. I know a lot of people who voted for Lib Dems and Labour last time voted for UKIP this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 I know a lot of people who voted for Lib Dems and Labour last time voted for UKIP this time. I find it odd that a Lib Dem voter would shift to UKIP. One is pro Europe, the other anti. I suspect that the majority of UKIPs voters were disaffected Tories but many Lib Dem voters in 2010 voted Tory in 2015. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamffc Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 I suspect a lot of labour voters also switched to UKIP. Labour seemed to position itself as the party of the public sector and unions, this will have lost appeal to millions of low paid workers who traditionally should be voting Labour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 (edited) Labour originated as the voice of organised labour, aka the working class, the conservatives are the voice of capitalism, so why is everyone amazed that Millaband fought on a manifesto of trying to redress the balance of power back in favour of the working class, the thing that amazes me is that the working man, ie. those without Capital, voted for the Conservatives whose only interest is in protecting the capital invested by Capitalists, does the working man want to see the old age pension age raised again, does he want to see his access to the law, to benefits restricted even further, does he want to see his working conditions eroded yet further, does the working man, aka as the middle class, want to see zero hours contracts introduced for their jobs, do people want to see pay rises disappear for ever in the name of getting the country 'back on its feet', who will benefit from getting the country 'back on its feet' the capitalists with a strong pound which allows them to invest with ease across the world. Who of the working class, and that includes everyone who is paid a salary or a wage, has seen any benefits from 'the trickle down effect, all they have seen is property become ever more expensive and jobs concentrated more and more around the centre of Capitalism, London, even charities now insist upon being located next to Capitalism for fear that they will be seen as 'losers'. So I think the real question is why, and how, has the wage slave been convinced to vote for the very people who are going to grind his face into the dirt, is it the promise that your child can go to private school and hopefully join the privileged classes or you might get that BMW company car or you can get private health care on the firm so you never have to go to that nasty smelly NHS with all those smelly people and do you really want to pay more tax just so those smelly people can get their skin rashes treated at your expense, all those goodies that people are promised so long as they forget that they are a wage slave making infinitely more money for the Capitalists than they will ever see in their working life's and that when capitalism considers that they are no longer productive units of production they will be dispensed with in favour of a younger, up to date and much cheaper version of themselves. And finally why this obsession with immigration, because the Conservatives and their Capitalist paymasters certainly don't want to turn the tap off, it provides them with a stream of cheap labour to keep on cutting wages with, but it provides them with a wonderful diversionary scapegoat which they can get everyone's attention focused on whilst they keep on doing what all Capitalists want, which is a cheap ,docile, workforce without any form of representation to protect its rights, bang on cue now that they have a majority what is the first thing the Conservatives are going to do is get rid of the Human Rights Act which gives the working man some redress against the State, in this case a Capitalist State. Call me a unreconstituted Socialist Conspiracy Theorist but I just wonder where we will be in 2020, beggars on street corners and everyone working 55 hour weeks for less and less money just to keep their job regardless of how crappy it is. So I think everyone should hope and pray that The Labour party can once again find its working class constituency and support because I have a feeling that a lot of people are going to need it by 2020 Edited May 20, 2015 by BacktoDemocracy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bungo Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Labour originated as the voice of organised labour, aka the working class, the conservatives are the voice of capitalism, so why is everyone amazed that Millaband fought on a manifesto of trying to redress the balance of power back in favour of the working class, the thing that amazes me is that the working man, ie. those without Capital, voted for the Conservatives whose only interest is in protecting the capital invested by Capitalists, does the working man want to see the old age pension age raised again, does he want to see his access to the law, to benefits restricted even further, does he want to see his working conditions eroded yet further, do the working man, aka as the middle class want to see zero hours contracts introduced for their jobs, do people want to see pay rises disappear for ever in the name of getting the country 'back on its feet', who will benefit from getting the country 'back on its feet' the capitalists with a strong pound which allows them to invest with ease across the world, and who of the working class, and that includes everyone who is paid a salary or a wage, has seen any benefits of 'the trickle down effect, all they have seen is property become ever more expensive and jobs concentrated more and more around the center of Capitalism, London, even charities now insist upon being located next Capitalism for fear that they will be seen as 'losers'.So I think the real question is why, and how, has the wage slave been convinced to vote for the very people who are going to grind his face into the dirt, is it the promise that your child can go to private school and hopefully join the privileged classes or you might get that BMW company car or you can get private health care on the firm so you never have to go to that nasty smelly NHS with all those smelly people, all those goodies that people are promised so long as they forget that they are a wage slave making infinitely more money for the Capitalists than they will ever see in their working life's and that when capitalism considers that they are no longer productive units of production they will be dispensed with in favour of a younger, up to date and much cheaper version of themselves. And finally why this obsession with immigration, because the Conservatives and their Capitalist paymasters certainly don't want to turn the tap off, it provides them with a stream of cheap labour to keep on cutting wages with, but it provides them with a wonderful diversionary scapegoat which they can get everyone's attention focused on whilst they keep on doing what all Capitalists want which is a cheap ,docile, workforce without any form of representation to protect its rights, bang on cue now that they have a majority what is the first thing they are going to get rid of is The Human Rights Act which gives the working man some redress against the State, in this case a Capitalist State. Call me Socialist Conspiracy Theorist but I just wonder where we will be in 2020,beggers on street corners and everyone working 55 hour weeks for less and less money just to keep their job regardless of how crappy it is. So I think everyone should hope and pray that The Labour party can once again find its working class constituency and support because I have a feeling that a lot of people are going to need it by 2020 The end of the world is nigh.... :laugh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Yes, you are definitely a Socialist Conspiracy Theorist BTD. Not a whole lot changes for the working man whoever is in power and many of the things you rail against in your post would certainly not change. Pension entitlement ages are going up for example because people are living a lot longer (a good thing surely) and the country cannot afford to pay. I'm afraid that a socialist utopia for the ordinary working man is merely a figment of your imagination. Keep the dream alive though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 The end of the world is nigh.... :laugh: It may well be but as with all ends it may not be with a bang but with a whimper heralded not by trumpet calls but by tiny incremental twangs of the strings held by Capitalism tightening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Yes, you are definitely a Socialist Conspiracy Theorist BTD. Not a whole lot changes for the working man whoever is in power and many of the things you rail against in your post would certainly not change. Pension entitlement ages are going up for example because people are living a lot longer (a good thing surely) and the country cannot afford to pay. I'm afraid that a socialist utopia for the ordinary working man is merely a figment of your imagination. Keep the dream alive though! What is man without his dreams and why do we have to settle for the limitations imposed on our imaginations by people who do not have our interests at heart. Just because we are living longer should not mean that we have to work longer, for many it is physically impossible as the numbers on Disability Benefit grows and grows show, but that is going to be the next target for the tories is getting them back to work on a zero hours contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny842003 Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 The Labour party spent too much time flinging **** and labelling the tories the nasty party. If they spent half as much energy on trying to show people why they should vote for them they might get somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 What is man without his dreams and why do we have to settle for the limitations imposed on our imaginations by people who do not have our interests at heart. Just because we are living longer should not mean that we have to work longer, for many it is physically impossible as the numbers on Disability Benefit grows and grows show, but that is going to be the next target for the tories is getting them back to work on a zero hours contract. That is very true but what it does mean is that we cannot keep drawing a pension for longer. I have planned my own life so that I can retire before the State Pension kicks in and I am an ordinary working guy having been paid close to the average wage most of the 38 years since I left school. It can be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 The Labour party spent too much time flinging **** and labelling the tories the nasty party. If they spent half as much energy on trying to show people why they should vote for them they might get somewhere. So the Mail, the Sun, the Telegraph, the Times even, the Express, Sky news and Fox news were all paragons of virtue, they were all being nicey nicey when they referred to Millaband as Red Ed and millapede were they, well even one Conservative mp admitted that they deserved the sobriquet 'the nasty party'. Ah well, as a retired oap with my pension already keeping me in the style I could become accustomed to it's not really going to be my problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 That is very true but what it does mean is that we cannot keep drawing a pension for longer. I have planned my own life so that I can retire before the State Pension kicks in and I am an ordinary working guy having been paid close to the average wage most of the 38 years since I left school. It can be done. Good luck to you but there are a huge number of people whose lives revolve around low paid manual jobs and who typically have between 15k and 30k in their pension fund and for whom retirement means accessing their state pension. Tell that to bricklayer or a truck driver or even a nurse that at 67 they are still going to be doing shifts and standing on their feet for 8 hours a day and that the tories might even force the age up another year in the next era of 'we're all in it together' austerity and so they can maintain the fairy story of no tax increases.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bungo Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Good luck to you but there are a huge number of people whose lives revolve around low paid manual jobs and who typically have between 15k and 30k in their pension fund and for whom retirement means accessing their state pension.Tell that to bricklayer or a truck driver or even a nurse that at 67 they are still going to be doing shifts and standing on their feet for 8 hours a day and that the tories might even force the age up another year in the next era of 'we're all in it together' austerity and so they can maintain the fairy story of no tax increases.. My sister is a nurse and she never stops gloating about the very comfortable retirement she has to look forward to, she still has another 15years or so to go. In the meantime she works four days a week for £30k and has eight weeks of annual leave. No complaints whatsoever, only thankful about her good fortune. Stop being so doom and gloom, the world is not as miserable as you seem to want to think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 My sister is a nurse and she never stops gloating about the very comfortable retirement she has to look forward to, she still has another 15years or so to go. In the meantime she works four days a week for £30k and has eight weeks of annual leave. No complaints whatsoever, only thankful about her good fortune. Stop being so doom and gloom, the world is not as miserable as you seem to want to think. Well i hope it works out for her but the the nhs pension scheme has been made less generous and more costly to the employee in just the last 12 months by the tories so hopefully they don't think it would be a good way to cheapen the nhs by doing another restructure of the pensions. And unfortunately 65 doesn't seem like hard graft from 50 but it's a different story when you get there and that is from hard worn experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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