Extended Rear Facing car seats in Australia

[oidara]

The lack of extended rear-facing really bothers me. We still live in Europe and we bought seats especially from Sweden that allow rear-facing to 25kg. My daughter just turned 4 and we have no plans to turn her FF for at least another year. We also have a 2 year old and a baby on the way, and we plan to keep them RF for as long as possible too. The thought of turning them FF at 6 or 12 months makes me shudder!

 

Just how much trouble would we be in if we continued to use our RF seats in Oz? And any ideas how long it will be before RF is possible to 18kg or more?

 

 

*******

 

ETA by snifter (forum mod) - This is a split thread taken from the Car seat thread which can be found here

 

http://www.pomsinoz.com/forum/transport-shipping/123214-car-seats-australia-what-you-need-know.html

 

All info regarding car seats in Australia can be found there, including ERF info. ERF discussion from that thread is now here however.

 

Cheers

 

snifter

[Guest]

The lack of extended rear-facing really bothers me. We still live in Europe and we bought seats especially from Sweden that allow rear-facing to 25kg. My daughter just turned 4 and we have no plans to turn her FF for at least another year. We also have a 2 year old and a baby on the way, and we plan to keep them RF for as long as possible too. The thought of turning them FF at 6 or 12 months makes me shudder!

 

Just how much trouble would we be in if we continued to use our RF seats in Oz? And any ideas how long it will be before RF is possible to 18kg or more?

 

We are ERF also. Our son turned 3 in May and is still rear facing in his car seat. We use a Britax Multi Tech and like your car seats, its good to 25kg ERF. Sadly Australia is behind the times but changes are afoot.

 

I'll tell you what I know.

 

You don't have to turn a child FF'ing at 6 or 12 months in Aus. The 6 month age is when the law says you *can* turn them FF'ing, but its not that you *have* to. Many parents in Australia opt to keep their child rear facing in their car seat to the absolute limit of the weight and height. Some are 13, 14 and 15 months old and still rear facing as they are not reaching the limits of the car seat.

 

If you then turn them forward facing there are a number of excellent car seats on the Aussie market. They are also tested for side impact and other factors. The top tether plays a big part in the secure fitting of car seats in Aus and factors if there is an impact.

 

The main issue in Australia is that certain corners of the car seat market argue ERF is not safer and that there is no need for it. But there is a growing demand from parents for this option to be sold as it is in the UK, US and elsewhere in the world. And since the new Aussie laws allow for EFR to 18kg there is even more pressure on the car seat manufacturers to come up with the goods.

 

Safe n Sound (Britax in the EU) have said they are going to work on designing an ERF car seat for the Aussie market in the not too distant future. They have other design changes they need to make and new designs to get through before this can happen though. And also there is a backlog in car seat testing to be approved, which is not Safe n Sounds fault. We are talking a couple of years off most likely. The key thing is for parents to keep up the pressure on the company to ensure they don't let it fall by the wayside.

 

Now, if you use your EFR car seats in Australia they won't be legal. If stopped by the police you are liable to a fine (it varies in amount from state to state), up to a few hundred dollars for the offence and 3 or more points on your licence. As to if this applies for one car seat or each of them that are illegal I cannot say. Its entirely possible you could be liable for a fine and points per car seat. I've yet to get clarification on this either way.

 

Now, the fine and the points are probably the thing to concern me the least. What concerns me most is the insurance and liability aspect. I've yet to have it clarified as it seems to be a bit of a grey area. Debate rages as to if it would invalidate any insurance in event of injury to a child in an illegal car seat or if the parent could be held liable in event of injury to their child. From what I've read it won't invalidate your actual insurance on the car, but any child in an illegal car seat that suffers injury may not be covered for personal injury and medical treatment that an insurer may otherwise pay up for. Also it may be you cannot claim to replace your car seats if they were not Aussie approved.

 

Some people say it doesn't matter re the car seats being illegal in terms of insurance claims, others say it does. Only the insurance companies can confirm this either way. Bit like if you modify a car and don't declare it for the policy, the insurance company might not cough up to replace/repair it. No car insurers ever query if I am using EU/UK approved car seats in my car here. I don't know if Aussie insurance companies ask this when you take out a policy.

 

I hope I've written that in a way that makes sense.

[oidara]

Thanks, snifter. That's all very helpful.

 

I'm really torn now about what to do. We are planning a 6 month trip out to Oz next spring and had thought we would take our seats with us as they are safer. Not sure what to do now because of the insurance issue you mentioned. The most important thing to me is obviously the safety of my kids, so I guess it boils down to looking at safety stats for the Ozzie top tether seats compared to ERF seats beyond age 2.

[pintpot]

I think you just bite it personally, and buy Aussie approved seats. You could research for ever and no doubt find many different PoV (personally I think you're being excessive wanting to have them rear facing until 4, but that's just me) but what you do know for a fact is that unless the seat is approved for use in Australia, it ain't legal

 

The best way of keeping your kids safe is not to crash in the first place, of course

[oidara]

It's very difficult to just "bite it" when it's my kids' safety at stake. Although you may think it's excessive keeping them RF til age 4 and beyond, the safety stats from Scandinavia speak volumes and it's not something I would like to compromise on given any choice.

 

Obviously the best way to keep them safe is not to crash. Unfortunately that's not something in my control, but the seats I choose is.

[Peach]

It's very difficult to just "bite it" when it's my kids' safety at stake. Although you may think it's excessive keeping them RF til age 4 and beyond, the safety stats from Scandinavia speak volumes and it's not something I would like to compromise on given any choice.

 

Obviously the best way to keep them safe is not to crash. Unfortunately that's not something in my control, but the seats I choose is.

 

even if in doing so you're breaking the law and invalidating your car insurance in the process? Driving without insurance seems like a compromise..

[pintpot]

It's very difficult to just "bite it" when it's my kids' safety at stake. Although you may think it's excessive keeping them RF til age 4 and beyond, the safety stats from Scandinavia speak volumes and it's not something I would like to compromise on given any choice.

 

You're not the only person in the world to have kids you know...... Quite apart from the subjectivity of those tests (and having lived and worked in Sweden I take fair bit of their info with a pinch of salt), the bottom line is that unless a seat is approved for use in Australia, it's not legal

 

So whilst you * think* efr seats are safer - and they may well be - you * know* they're not legal to use. And that could get you in a whole world of pain.

 

Really can't see what there is to be "torn" about. Just follow the local rule

 

.

Unfortunately that's not something in my control, but the seats I choose is.

Nonsense. You can definitely control or at least influence your chance of having an accident by the way you drive. If it's that critical, don't drive anywhere. Or drive less, whatever. You can do things to reduce risk but you can't avoid it 100%, whatever car seats you use

[oidara]

It's not nonsense to say that I can't control whether I am in an accident or not. If people could control that, there wouldn't be accidents at all. Yes, measures can be taken to avoid accidents, of course they can. But - in the event of being in an accident that can't be avoided - I want to know I've done all I can to keep my kids safe. There's really no need to be so aggressive.

[Guest Davo77]

I would be concerned that in using illegal car seats, you not only invalidate your insurance and risk a fine, you could potentially open yourself up to more serious charges if anything happened to the child in an accident.

[oidara]

Thanks, snifter, for your helpful response.

 

Thanks to you too, Davo. This is exactly what I'm worried about.

 

I appreciate both of your constructive comments.

[Guest]

oidara

 

One thing that is in the back of my mind somewhere is a 3 month holiday rule. I read somewhere (and will try to find the link) that if going on holiday to Australia you can use your own car seats for up to 3 months. This may be if just out of NZ or from elsewhere. Or perhaps from nowhere and its myth.

 

I don't know if this is fact or myth but it might be worth looking in to more and also contacting some car rental companies (not just one or two but a few) and so on to enquire as to if this is actually the case or not. I know I've read about it in the past on some car seat websites and so will do my best to find links for you. But as to actually researching this further and seeing if its true, that is something you will need to do yourself.

[Jurls]

At the end of the day, if you choose to migrate to Australia then you choose to abide by her laws. You can't go round picking and choosing which laws you like and don't like. What happens when you start finding other things that you prefer from Europe? Where do you draw the line?

 

I have my children in Australian car seats as do millions of Australians.........:err:

[Guest]

As I said above, oidara is aware of the legal and insurance aspects. Its been made clear in a number of posts, including ones by me.

[oidara]

Thanks again, snifter. I will try to look into that 3 month rule.

 

As for where to draw the line on abiding by rules, just because I am thinking of using my own car seat doesn't mean I intend to go to Oz and commit crimes left, right and centre!

 

It was the recommendation in the UK to turn kids FF at 12 months until not long ago, and now the age has been changed to 2. Guidelines on this change as countries review safety studies and car seat manufacturers step up and provide seats to meet new demands.

 

Surely it's not difficult to understand that it's hard to swallow the idea of putting my kids in seats that I - personally, after lots of research - have concluded are not as safe?

 

As snifter says, perhaps we can just keep this thread limited to a discussion of the facts rather than a debate on who chooses what seat. We are all just trying to do what's best for our kids.

[Guest]

As snifter says, perhaps we can just keep this thread limited to a discussion of the facts rather than a debate on who chooses what seat. We are all just trying to do what's best for our kids.

 

Yes, exactly

 

Thank you.

[Jurls]

Sorry, I apologise...

 

I started writing this message and then went away to bathe my children and put them to bed. I returned and continued to write it without checking for more recent messages. My mistake. I shall refrain from any further comments. :biggrin:

[Guest]

For those UK/EU parents who use ERF car seats Safe n Sound, the Aussie division of Britax posted this earlier today.

 

 

 

Safe-n-Sound is trying to respond to the requests of those carers who would like a larger rearward facing child restraint than those currently available from Safe n Sound. As we have indicated earlier our engineering agenda for the past 18 months has been dominated with activity in creating child restraints to meet the new Australian Standard.

 

As this work load has eased we have undertaken preliminary evaluations of the technical requirements of a Type D child restraint (Rear Facing with child restraint in-built harness to approximately 4 years).

 

Under the 2010 Australian Standard for child restraints a Type D restraint must pass a rearward facing crash test utilising a P6 Dummy. A P6 Dummy represents a child of approximately 6 years old. There are considerable technical issues using a P6 Dummy but we have no design flexibility under the current Australian Standard.

 

We have advised Standards Australia of the problems in the current standard but the revisions are complex. We are hoping that Standards Australia will start a new project to include revised Type D rear facing requirements to allow testing using a P3 Dummy which would allow such a seat to then be made in Australia.

 

If you support rear facing for longer then send a message of support to Standards Australia for a review of rear facing Type D child restraints in the near future.

 

In the meantime Safe-n-Sound will be exploring other options to rear face for longer. Please remain a fan for further updates.

 

 

 

As soon as I find out the correct contact address for Standards Australia on this issue I will post it here.

[Guest slipshot]

A great thread and one I have an interest in - and an opinion that no doubt bucks the trend but supported with facts too.

 

I use our UK ISOFIX seats here in Aus (we bought them with us since there was no point in throwing away perfectly good car seats which had never been in an accident). Little lesson there - in the UK you are not allowed to sell car seats because there's no proof they have or have not been in an accident and which is why seat belts, when in a n accident in the UK, should be changed. In Aus you can sell second hand car seats and no real checks are done.

 

Very simple reason for using them - ISOFIX is a proven system. There's all this nonsense in Aus about having seats fitted by a professional which is all well and good until the first time that person needs to switch the car seat into another car - then it matters not a jolt. I have seen some shockingly fitted car seats in cars where people have literally just fitted the top tether and nothing else, believing this is fine. Exactly why ISOFIX was invented. It's good to know how to do it but every car is different and ISOFIX prevents these issues.

 

So, I work on the principle that I know the ISOFIX seats I have bought are stronger, safer and better than the Aus seat we have purchased (given we have three kids). I am not going to go backwards on safety by moving to an inferior system that is ripe for issues when ISOFIX is proven.

 

Is it illegal for use in Australia - perhaps. But the priority is for my kids safety and when I know ISOFIX is safer, then I will use it and replace the seats with Aus seats as and when the kids grow out of them.

 

I appreciate others may not like this but no-one can tell me that ISOFIX is not a better system that a top tether and standard adult seat belt - just a comparison shows you how much more rigid the fitting is with ISOFIX, let alone the seats are far sturdier, heavier and better built.

 

And, when we first got here and I asked our insurance company about using the ISOFIX seat mounting, they had no issue with it. Thus to say your insurance is invalidated is not strictly true. Never had to test this to I appreciate it could change but the simple fact comes down to my own personal feeling that the Aus system IS a backwards step from ISOFIX and I am not willing to put my children in that position.

[Guest]

A great thread and one I have an interest in - and an opinion that no doubt bucks the trend but supported with facts too.

 

I use our UK ISOFIX seats here in Aus (we bought them with us since there was no point in throwing away perfectly good car seats which had never been in an accident). Little lesson there - in the UK you are not allowed to sell car seats because there's no proof they have or have not been in an accident and which is why seat belts, when in a n accident in the UK, should be changed. In Aus you can sell second hand car seats and no real checks are done.

 

Very simple reason for using them - ISOFIX is a proven system. There's all this nonsense in Aus about having seats fitted by a professional which is all well and good until the first time that person needs to switch the car seat into another car - then it matters not a jolt. I have seen some shockingly fitted car seats in cars where people have literally just fitted the top tether and nothing else, believing this is fine. Exactly why ISOFIX was invented. It's good to know how to do it but every car is different and ISOFIX prevents these issues.

 

So, I work on the principle that I know the ISOFIX seats I have bought are stronger, safer and better than the Aus seat we have purchased (given we have three kids). I am not going to go backwards on safety by moving to an inferior system that is ripe for issues when ISOFIX is proven.

 

Is it illegal for use in Australia - perhaps. But the priority is for my kids safety and when I know ISOFIX is safer, then I will use it and replace the seats with Aus seats as and when the kids grow out of them.

 

I appreciate others may not like this but no-one can tell me that ISOFIX is not a better system that a top tether and standard adult seat belt - just a comparison shows you how much more rigid the fitting is with ISOFIX, let alone the seats are far sturdier, heavier and better built.

 

And, when we first got here and I asked our insurance company about using the ISOFIX seat mounting, they had no issue with it. Thus to say your insurance is invalidated is not strictly true. Never had to test this to I appreciate it could change but the simple fact comes down to my own personal feeling that the Aus system IS a backwards step from ISOFIX and I am not willing to put my children in that position.

 

Thanks for the reply I had posted earlier in this thread that this wasn't to debate the morals of other peoples personal choice should they choose to use an illegal car seat in Australia. It is to provide information about the legal aspects, types of car seats, future changes and so on. What a person chooses to use is their decision, I am just trying to ensure people are informed and can make up their own mind from there.

 

Whatever my personal feelings on the subject, the law in Australia is quite clear at this point in time. If a car seat is not approved to Aus standards etc then it isn't legal to use in Australia. End of. If the police stop you and notice your car seats are not Aussie approved and using a top tether you could well end up with a fine and points on your licence. Plenty of people have had this happen it would seem.

 

My understanding is you can sell 2nd hand car seats in the UK. Just its not advised due to the reasons you gave. But it is not illegal. http://www.childcarseats.org.uk/choosing/second_hand_seats.htm

 

With regards to Isofix. I have never disagreed that its not a better system in terms if ease of install and being practically foolproof. It is. However, if installed correctly an Aussie car seat fitted with seatbelt and top tether is very secure and the top tether prevents excess movement etc as does Isofix. If you want to be really secure, even with Isofix you'll have bought seats that also use a top tether (they do sell them in the UK). Also the use of a top tether is law in Australia hence all Aussie car seats using them.

 

Also the Australian standards test their car seats to a different degree than we do in the EU/UK. And in some respects, the testing they go through is more rigid and expansive in some areas. So to say Aussie car seats are inferior safety wise is possibly wide of the mark. It ultimately boils down to the type of car seat you buy and alas, how much you can spend. The top rated ones are usually the more expensive ones also. And of course, how you install them makes a huge difference.

 

As for is it illegal to use your Isofix seats in Australia, in the eyes of the law, yes it is. No 'perhaps' about it. Isofix has only just been approved on paper and the earliest it'll be available is toward the end of 2012 or 2013. It may or may not come in the style of the US LATCH system where they use a top tether also, and as the Aussies already use a top tether I'd think it was more than likely they would go the extra step and keep it rather than doing away with it.

 

No one was telling you Isofix wasn't better. At least not in this thread that I can see. The purpose of this thread is to inform people of the laws and regulations of car seats in Australia. Not to debate the pros and cons of Isofix. I posted all the information about legailities and plans afoot regarding it all. That I am remaining objective is simply because I am trying not to let my own personal feelings on car seat safety invade this thread (they are very opinionated and strong) and to simply ensure I inform people of the facts as best I can and then they can make up their own mind as to what they wish to do.

 

On the car insurance issue, as I said earlier in the thread, its a grey area and there is nothing set in stone about using illegal car seats invalidating your insurance. But people have posted elsewhere online differing feedback from their own enquiries so I am not going to come out and say using illegal car seats won't invalidate your car insurance. It would be stupid of me I think, if I am trying to provide valid information for people. It is not for me to speak for all insurance companies, people need to contact them themselves and find out and remember it will then only apply to them, not others. I think I also posted in this thread (but it may be another one) that people call insurance companies and ask (although to do so anonymously might be good if unsure it could cause problems) about their car seats if they are not Aussie approved but they intend to use them in Aus.

 

My last point to cover is the medical and legal aspects if a child suffers injury when in an accident in a car using an illegal car seat. An awful thought but one some people might want to be aware of. Again, I am not the law or an insurer and I will only say it seems to be a grey area in some parts and people have again have differing experiences. Some good, some not so good.

[Guest km75]

The lack of extended rear-facing really bothers me. We still live in Europe and we bought seats especially from Sweden that allow rear-facing to 25kg. My daughter just turned 4 and we have no plans to turn her FF for at least another year. We also have a 2 year old and a baby on the way, and we plan to keep them RF for as long as possible too. The thought of turning them FF at 6 or 12 months makes me shudder!

 

Just how much trouble would we be in if we continued to use our RF seats in Oz? And any ideas how long it will be before RF is possible to 18kg or more?

 

One of my friends in QLD still has her children rear facing, actually I think she has recently turned her five year old to forward facing..

[Guest]

Extended rear facing isn't yet available in Aus. Your friend was/is probably using an imported car seat (which isn't legal) if she has only just turned a 5 year old forward facing. There are no car seats past 13kg that are rear facing in Aus, most of them only RF to 9kg. To RF to aged 5 you'd be looking at being well over 18kg in weight and there isn't a single car seat tested to Aus standards on sale in Aus atm to that weight. One is in the pipeline with Safe n Sound but its still only on paper. Its a long way off from being tested and sold over there.

 

I've removed the FB link as we don't allow links to that site on the forum. I've already posted about the RF groups in my first post so people can find them if they wish

 

Thanks

 

snifter

[Peach]

Is it illegal for use in Australia - perhaps.

 

No not perhaps. It is illegal to use or sell a non-approved (i.e. one that doesn't meet AS 1754) in Australia.

 

[h=2]Approved child restraints[/h]

Child restraints sold in Australia must meet the strict requirements of the Australian Standard AS 1754. Restraints bought in other countries will not meet the Australian Standard and it is illegal to use them in Australia.

 

http://sa.gov.au/subject/Transport,+travel+and+motoring/Road+safety/Seatbelts+and+child+restraints/Approved+child+restraints

[Peach]

On the car insurance issue, as I said earlier in the thread, its a grey area and there is nothing set in stone about using illegal car seats invalidating your insurance. But people have posted elsewhere online differing feedback from their own enquiries so I am not going to come out and say using illegal car seats won't invalidate your car insurance. It would be stupid of me I think, if I am trying to provide valid information for people. It is not for me to speak for all insurance companies, people need to contact them themselves and find out and remember it will then only apply to them, not others. I think I also posted in this thread (but it may be another one) that people call insurance companies and ask (although to do so anonymously might be good if unsure it could cause problems) about their car seats if they are not Aussie approved but they intend to use them in Aus.

 

My last point to cover is the medical and legal aspects if a child suffers injury when in an accident in a car using an illegal car seat. An awful thought but one some people might want to be aware of. Again, I am not the law or an insurer and I will only say it seems to be a grey area in some parts and people have again have differing experiences. Some good, some not so good.

 

While I'm at it: Your own insurance company might agree to play nice, but were something terrible to happen and you needed to make a claim against a 3rd party's insurance for the ongoing medical treatment of your child - you can almost be certain that use of a non-approved restraint would give them enough excuse to reject your claim.

[Shigella]

I've just stumbled across this thread because we're planning to bring our Swedish rear facing car seats over when we move in about 2 years time.

I'm a bit startled that Australian car seat laws are so primitive. However, I'm going to use our Swedish seats anyway. The idea that some jumped up little bureaucrat can dictate that I should use a less safe configuration than the one I already possess is ludicrous.

 

The safety of my children is paramount and the law be damned.

[Guest]

I've just stumbled across this thread because we're planning to bring our Swedish rear facing car seats over when we move in about 2 years time.

I'm a bit startled that Australian car seat laws are so primitive. However, I'm going to use our Swedish seats anyway. The idea that some jumped up little bureaucrat can dictate that I should use a less safe configuration than the one I already possess is ludicrous.

 

The safety of my children is paramount and the law be damned.

 

The regulations allow for ERF seats, its not that they don't. The newest review of them has made a provision for ERF. It's more that the manufacturers haven't ventured there for many reasons (don't even get me started on the Aus car seat companies who don't seem so keen on Isofix or ERF as it means they will have to rewrite their books on it all and design a whole new heap of seats).

 

Also for some reason the testing regulations for an 18kg ERF car seat limit mean it has to be tested to higher limits to pass at the lower limit when in actual use. Of course, that Britax already make an ERF cat seat up to 25kg seems to be ignored/overlooked/not realised/forgotten/something else entirely by SafeNSound. They could use that as a base to work from surely I think as it gives them that higher weight limit to be tested under. But it seems to fall on deaf ears or they don't talk to Britax elsewhere in the world (well they must do as some of their Aus car seats are pretty much EU/US ones in different covers!)

 

We use a well know extended rear facing car seat here in the UK and I feel very strongly about ERF and car seat safety. Things are changing in Aus and Safe n Sound (Britax name in Aus) hopefully will have an ERF car seat option in the next year or two. The pressure is growing on them to produce one. And honestly, its much needed for parents who want the option and the choice, considering its in the regs as being something that is 'allowed'. Hopefully once they produce one, other companies will follow.

 

But yeah, have to say its hard for me to even contemplate using a FF car seat for my child until he is much older. He is 4 in a few months and over 18kg a while back but still has plenty of room in his ERF seat and another 6 kilos or so till hitting the weight limits of it.

 

I can't and won't judge you on your choice, its never been my intent in this thread to slam people for making a choice based on the information they have (from here and elsewhere). I understand where you are coming from totally. We are all adults and while I will always point out the legal aspects (and possible insurance but you can verify if this is an issue yourselves with car and medical) I just try to provide people with the info and the options and if people choose to use a non Aus approved car seat, that is for them to decide.

 

FWIW, a few groups online for ERF in Aus are active and getting the word out and putting pressure on the Aus car seat companies to come up with the goods. If you want to give them your support they would be more than happy. Even if its just emailing the companies as a concerned parent or posting on certain group pages etc.