Housing crisis due to immigrants

when I came back to Australia in 2002, there was an IT recession. Yet the government were importing IT staff faster than you could spit. They always do this. They can't react fast enough to changes in the economy. They were probably importing geologists when verystormy was out of work.

 

I would agree with letting people in if they can get a job. Let the market decide. But that does keep wages down, which has pros and cons. You could set numbers, but how do you decide those numbers?

 

Question for you. Would you restrict people in the north of Australia from traveling south for work? If there was a recession in the north and jobs in the south.

No, but you could restrict new migrants to a particular area.

Migration can benefit any country, but, it can also damage. It needs to be at levels that can be managed.

It also needs needs to be of the right type.

In in the first case, the levels have to no higher than what infrastructure development can cope with. This includes house building, but also everything else such as hospitals and schools. And of course increasing the staff and the budget to pay for them. If it doesn't, then it fails to benefit.

Pin the second, it isn't enough to say someone is working and paying tax. They need to be paying sufficient tax, which is a very different thing. For example, a family with a couple of kids, need to be earning far more than the average wage to be a net contributor.

No, but you could restrict new migrants to a particular area.

Migration can benefit any country, but, it can also damage. It needs to be at levels that can be managed.

 

It also needs needs to be of the right type.

 

In in the first case, the levels have to no higher than what infrastructure development can cope with. This includes house building, but also everything else such as hospitals and schools. And of course increasing the staff and the budget to pay for them. If it doesn't, then it fails to benefit.

 

Pin the second, it isn't enough to say someone is working and paying tax. They need to be paying sufficient tax, which is a very different thing. For example, a family with a couple of kids, need to be earning far more than the average wage to be a net contributor.

Whether or not you need control all the time is debatable. The Chinese boom has caused a huge amount of migration for Australia, and possibly this wasn't managed as well as it should have been. Infrastructure takes a lot of time to plan and build. Possibly we need more flexibility in our infrastructure. More temporary classrooms, more smaller medical units rather than large hospitals. If Perth had started building infrastructure to deal with its boom, they would be just about finished now as the numbers start to drop off. You also need labour to build that infrastructure which is competing with the labour needed for the boom.

Maybe Australia should just get used to having recessions again.

why wouldn't you put the migrants where the jobs are? Surely that is where they will go?

You'd like to think so. But look at all of the people on this forum who are determined to settle on the Sunshine Coast, Gold Coast or Perth just hoping for the best that a job in their field exists there.

You'd like to think so. But look at all of the people on this forum who are determined to settle on the Sunshine Coast, Gold Coast or Perth just hoping for the best that a job in their field exists there.

My idea is young people can't buy house which close city, but young people still find affordable apartments or house in remote suburbs.

What such as yours?

Well I arrived in WA and there were lots of houses to rent so this perhaps is a Sydney thing? Your absolutely right though people watch Wanted Down Under and decide their Australian dream means moving to the Gold Coast, sun, sea and sand! The same people enquire about jobs on here are warned about the difficulties in obtaining work in a certain field and still move!

Racist? Where is race brought in to it?

You mentioned Dick Smith?

I'm happy for immigration to continue to the U.K. but if no job in 3 months you have to go home....and no access to unemployment/ low income benefits....if you need benefits you claim from your home country ie go home. I think this could've been negotiated without leaving the EU.

But that doesn't happen ...oh the things I could tell you ...

Ok here's 1

I had to go into an empty property with the fire brigade in Coventry ...the property had a burst and flooded properties below .

The door was broken down by the fire brigade , as the property had been left un occupied.

The police were then called when 4 DIFFERENT PASSPORTS WERE FOUND ,for the same bloke .

That's one of hundreds I could tell you ,some involving nhs fraud , immigration irregularities , drug dealing

And that's just one apartment block .

Britains borders are like a sieve .

There is so much stuff going on , its bloody unbelievable .

The one guy done a runner back to the middle east owing the nhs £14,000 ...same apartment block

You think that will change after brexit? You don't think the same happens in Australia? What don't you understand about the word illegal?

Something I could not understand was the migrant crisis at Calais last year. Why were so many people trying to get into the UK from France? And risking their lives in the process? France is not as far as I am aware a particularly hostile country like say Syria. A colleague suggested it was because although benefits in France are generous you need some sort of card to access them like the Medicare Card here and that card is very hard to get for non French people. A similar system in the Uk would pay for itself in the long run I suspect.

Probably they had family there or they spoke a bit of English and wanted to make it that little bit easier on themselves. Don't overestimate the problem though. Germany took 5 times more refugees than the UK did, so it's not like the majority of refugees were looking to go to the UK. There were only 6500 people at Calais too. Not very much in the grand scheme of the Syrian war.

their is plenty of space in Australia the problem is not enough of houses are being built and developers see the financial gains in building flats as there is a stronger return

Australia has almost unrestricted immigration just like the UK. If an employer group says there is a shortage, the government gives them a rubber stamp to import people whether they are needed or not.  My wife and I have been financially devastated by this, just like in the UK.   My job was offshored to India, my wifes replaced with a bunch of dodgy visas types from India (apparently job offshored but in fact done by Indian contractors doing rotating shifts for a few months in Aus, Work that one out) As we were aged circa 50yo at the time we were very much not wanted in the IT industry from then on regardless of the many years experience and much of it current and up to date at the time, especially when they could import a 25 year old with far less experience for perhaps 10-20% less money..   Something for many around here to look forward to.

When I first got made redundant back in the UK, I spent a year chasing IT jobs, no luck, age barrier was at work and as one recruitment agent said to me 'it is more than my job is worth to put someone of your age forward anywhere in London these days' at the age of 49,  There was so many incoming IT workers from every corner of the globe, just like Australia right now.  My wifes last job was lost in Melbourne after we returned to Australia.  Then tried chasing low level jobs, no luck, was not Polish and under the age of 30. In Oz, drove a bus for a couple of years till developed arthritis in both feet!  surrounded by Indian drivers who came to Australia to do cooking and hairdressing courses(another scam).

This IS what immigration is about and at such levels does not enhance the lives of anyone but the rich or those coming from much poorer countries perhaps and often countries which really need to keep their skilled people.

The housing situation is also a rigged market just  like the job market when it comes to immigration. Government sponsored  unlimited demand from all directions, government sponsored restricted supply, poor supply at that when infrastructure is taken into account and it would seem that the cynical ploy being that once you have handed over your money to a builder/land developer the job is done, 'they' have made their money and no other issues need be taken into account.   If anyone believes that Australian immigration is anything more than a ploy to put money into the pockets of the 1%ers surrounding Sydney Harbour they are mistaken and naive in the extreme.

ps I have nothing against immigrants as people and find the mix today far better than the absolute racist misogynist (still working on that one) mono-culture it used to be, however that is the only benefit of the last round of immigration.

On 31/03/2017 at 9:55 PM, steve2017 said:

Australia has almost unrestricted immigration just like the UK. If an employer group says there is a shortage, the government gives them a rubber stamp to import people whether they are needed or not.  My wife and I have been financially devastated by this, just like in the UK.   My job was offshored to India, my wifes replaced with a bunch of dodgy visas types from India (apparently job offshored but in fact done by Indian contractors doing rotating shifts for a few months in Aus, Work that one out) As we were aged circa 50yo at the time we were very much not wanted in the IT industry from then on regardless of the many years experience and much of it current and up to date at the time, especially when they could import a 25 year old with far less experience for perhaps 10-20% less money..   Something for many around here to look forward to.

When I first got made redundant back in the UK, I spent a year chasing IT jobs, no luck, age barrier was at work and as one recruitment agent said to me 'it is more than my job is worth to put someone of your age forward anywhere in London these days' at the age of 49,  There was so many incoming IT workers from every corner of the globe, just like Australia right now.  My wifes last job was lost in Melbourne after we returned to Australia.  Then tried chasing low level jobs, no luck, was not Polish and under the age of 30. In Oz, drove a bus for a couple of years till developed arthritis in both feet!  surrounded by Indian drivers who came to Australia to do cooking and hairdressing courses(another scam).

This IS what immigration is about and at such levels does not enhance the lives of anyone but the rich or those coming from much poorer countries perhaps and often countries which really need to keep their skilled people.

The housing situation is also a rigged market just  like the job market when it comes to immigration. Government sponsored  unlimited demand from all directions, government sponsored restricted supply, poor supply at that when infrastructure is taken into account and it would seem that the cynical ploy being that once you have handed over your money to a builder/land developer the job is done, 'they' have made their money and no other issues need be taken into account.   If anyone believes that Australian immigration is anything more than a ploy to put money into the pockets of the 1%ers surrounding Sydney Harbour they are mistaken and naive in the extreme.

ps I have nothing against immigrants as people and find the mix today far better than the absolute racist misogynist (still working on that one) mono-culture it used to be, however that is the only benefit of the last round of immigration.

I do despair when I see politicians and others worshiping at the alter of controlled immigration. Especially when they refer to Australia as the gold standard. It's like they suddenly expect things to be different. All they have done is open up the market.

From my perspective, I have carved out a role in IT correcting various companies attempts at saving money by using off shore staff. The happy medium seems to be to develop in partnership, and never go outside your companies skill set. I have seen some terrible projects when companies relinquish control, and some very good ones when they maintain control. It can work if managed well and developed within a mesh of highly skilled internal staff. Sadly it often doesn't.

23 hours ago, steve2017 said:

Australia has almost unrestricted immigration just like the UK. If an employer group says there is a shortage, the government gives them a rubber stamp to import people whether they are needed or not.  My wife and I have been financially devastated by this, just like in the UK.   My job was offshored to India, my wifes replaced with a bunch of dodgy visas types from India

It's a tough one. Australia has used immigration to fight off a recession for 19 years, so what you say is true...even the Poms have been criticised for coming over on 457's and ruining the stability of Australian job security....you might have been one of them, and now the same is happening to you.  We're all part of the circle.

 What has happened though, is that people have become incredibly wealthy in Australia, but less productive as a whole compared to rapid advances in efficiency in the 3rd world.  There is always somebody coming up from behind.

The bottom line is, they can only prop up quality of life and wages for so long before it reaches tipping point for the pre-immigrant population.  The UK reached that stage years ago and has been dropping ever since, to the disaster that is unfolding today. If anything, Brexit will lead to increased immigration as they will need more cheaper workers to remain competitive in whatever market they end up in, or the businesses will have to relocate to wherever the workers are.  If the UK and Australia want to survive in their current formats, the people who haven't already made their fortunes will have to accept that they will have it much harder than now, and work for less personal benefit, if they want to survive and eventually prosper.

Young people today won't have the sort of lives their parents, or grandparents had.   They will see a drop in standards, balancing out against the immigrant and poorest people who are coming in from poverty and seeing a rise in their living standards.  They incidently, don't see a problem as their own lives are improving dramatically and they are being lifted out of poverty.  This is the underlying principle of capital democracy, and everybody is happy to argue for democracy as long as they are still on the upward curve.  What happens when the beneficiaries of democracy reach the top of their own cliff and realise that their dramatic increase in life quality and wealth is heading for a plateau and then a decline, is still being played out.

The Brexiteer voters from the poorest classes are hoping their Government is going to save them from the competition, the rust belt voter from the USA is hoping Trump is going to save them and send them back to a time of digging coal. Australia will hit this point in about 10 years.  It's all bullshit...both Trump and the UK Government are already doing what Government's do and dropping the promises that put them in place, because none of them really want to change the system to protect their people. Isolationism and protectionism to keep the wolf from the door need a wholesale change in principle and belief, and we're just going to get more of the same.

Can they be saved, and do you trust Government to do what you want, or are they going to use your vote as a mandate for them to whatever they want and retain the status quo just in a different format?

On 01/04/2017 at 11:13 PM, Slean Wolfhead said:

It's a tough one. Australia has used immigration to fight off a recession for 19 years, so what you say is true...even the Poms have been criticised for coming over on 457's and ruining the stability of Australian job security....you might have been one of them, and now the same is happening to you.  We're all part of the circle.

 What has happened though, is that people have become incredibly wealthy in Australia, but less productive as a whole compared to rapid advances in efficiency in the 3rd world.  There is always somebody coming up from behind.

The bottom line is, they can only prop up quality of life and wages for so long before it reaches tipping point for the pre-immigrant population.  The UK reached that stage years ago and has been dropping ever since, to the disaster that is unfolding today. If anything, Brexit will lead to increased immigration as they will need more cheaper workers to remain competitive in whatever market they end up in, or the businesses will have to relocate to wherever the workers are.  If the UK and Australia want to survive in their current formats, the people who haven't already made their fortunes will have to accept that they will have it much harder than now, and work for less personal benefit, if they want to survive and eventually prosper.

Young people today won't have the sort of lives their parents, or grandparents had.   They will see a drop in standards, balancing out against the immigrant and poorest people who are coming in from poverty and seeing a rise in their living standards.  They incidently, don't see a problem as their own lives are improving dramatically and they are being lifted out of poverty.  This is the underlying principle of capital democracy, and everybody is happy to argue for democracy as long as they are still on the upward curve.  What happens when the beneficiaries of democracy reach the top of their own cliff and realise that their dramatic increase in life quality and wealth is heading for a plateau and then a decline, is still being played out.

The Brexiteer voters from the poorest classes are hoping their Government is going to save them from the competition, the rust belt voter from the USA is hoping Trump is going to save them and send them back to a time of digging coal. Australia will hit this point in about 10 years.  It's all bullshit...both Trump and the UK Government are already doing what Government's do and dropping the promises that put them in place, because none of them really want to change the system to protect their people. Isolationism and protectionism to keep the wolf from the door need a wholesale change in principle and belief, and we're just going to get more of the same.

Can they be saved, and do you trust Government to do what you want, or are they going to use your vote as a mandate for them to whatever they want and retain the status quo just in a different format?

 

 

Brilliant reply. Thank you.

On ‎22‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 11:13 PM, bunbury61 said:

 

Of course its considered racist by some to question levels of immigration .

 

My post was tongue in cheek

Yes by vested interests wanting to maintain the status quo. The reality being it is not about immigration as such but the incredible numbers allowed in, in order to maintain the housing frenzy. Immigration has and always will be a part of Australia. Just it shouldn't be the centre part  of attempting economic prosperity replacement.

On ‎31‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 6:30 AM, wertu113 said:

their is plenty of space in Australia the problem is not enough of houses are being built and developers see the financial gains in building flats as there is a stronger return

 

The problem is infrastructure isn't being built to cope with anything like the migrant excess. Space is limited in our cities, hence the ever move 'outwards' to suburban boundaries.