eu referendum update

Just my perspective ,but remember iam living here ,and I meet many new people everyday .

Its breaking down roughly like this

Young and/or urban areas ...IN

older and /or rural ...OUT

My percentage of the people I meet

90% out

10% in ....

But that's just me

The in and out campaigns were in Solihull yesterday .

As the in campaigners approached people with leaflets,there was a lot of " no thanks" .

Strangely 2 of the people in the " in" camp that I have met have been elderly ,and are voting in for their grandchildrens future .....not for themselves.

In the sky news debates ( available online ) I thought Cameron got a mauling ,and Michael govedone quite well.

It is the most important vote,probably in British history .

I feel Britain is in the last chance saloon ...i will be voting OUT ...so will most of the people I know

SHORT TERM PAIN FOR LONG TERM GAIN

I'm voting out too.. you are right about the older generation voting in and the younger voting out.. I guess growing up to poorly paid jobs and missing out to other Europeans has got too many people's backs up.

It's such a difficult debate. I've been listening to it all and it's very difficult to get at the facts under all the grandstanding.

Personally, though, I think Britain should leave the EU, just on principle. The UK has always been a begrudging member of the EU - even right at the start, we only joined after getting a whole raft of exemptions, and ever since we've been demanding special treatment in one way or another.

I think if you're going to join an organisation then you should be able to commit to it wholeheartedly - otherwise you shouldn't join in the first place.

I'm voting out too.. you are right about the older generation voting in and the younger voting out.. I guess growing up to poorly paid jobs and missing out to other Europeans has got too many people's backs up.

The only thing that I really don't understand .

People on the left are being hoodwinked into thinking the e.u is good for the working men and women of the u.k .

The only thing its good for is big business and the global elites ,whilst the people of Europe are introduced to zero hours contracts and growing unemployment ,across much of the e.u .

Greece is ****ed ,Italy is virtually bankrupt .

They are worried to death Britain will leave ,because this will start the domino effect ....

How exactly do you think your life is going to improve if there is a Brexit Bunbury?

How exactly do you think your life is going to improve if there is a Brexit Bunbury?

Well hopefully the £50 million per day that is the UKs net contribution could be put to some good use for a start.

But mainly I will vote out because I believe in democracy, of governments being held accountable and being governed by an elected party of my country. I know that for say 50% of my lifetime the government in power will not be the one of my choosing, but I accept them as an elected government.

I came across this which might help those who are unsure. It's a bit long but worth reading:

On June 23rd we have the chance to vote to return the decision making for our country's future to the British people and not some foreign politician that you have not chosen to represent you ?..

People want to know the facts. Here are some:

"You are not voting to leave the EEA or WTO, meaning all of the UK's trade and benefit agreements will remain unchanged should we leave, until such a time that the UK decides to renegotiate them for any reason.

You are not voting to leave NATO, meaning our security agreements remain unchanged. Should we receive an act of hostility from a non-NATO member, then NATO countries are obliged to come to our assistance. This does not change.

You are not voting to leave the UN, G8 or G20, meaning Britain will have the same voice on the world stage as it does today.

You are not voting to leave Europe!! The UK will still, geographically, be part of Europe. Non-political organisations aligned to Europe will still extend membership to the UK (I.e. sports governing bodies, and so on).

You are not voting to stop recognising Interpol, Europol and neither are you voting for SIS / MI6 to stop dealing with other intelligence services in the fight against terrorism and global, organised crime.

You are not voting against being able to travel to Europe, contrary to the belief of some fools recently on TV. The UK has always maintained stricter border and passport controls than many EU members. This will not change. You will still use a passport to go on holiday and you will still be allowed entry to countries in Europe. You may even get chance to skip queues by using the non--EU queues at the airport (the only point so far that is my opinion, and not necessarily a fact).

The UK economy will benefit to the tune of £billions in the first year after we leave.

Medical and science research will not simply stop. The UK pays into the EU to then get money back in the form of funding. The UK will now be in control of this money and can choose to fund whatever UK based medical, science, art or other research it chooses.

Farming will not lose money because of EU funding being cut. The UK negotiated a rebate of some monies that the UK pays to the EU, in order to subsidise UK farmers. Instead of asking for our money back, we can give it straight to farmers. No change there.

You are not voting against human rights. The EU Convention on, and European Court of Human Rights are not part of the EU. Until parliament passes a new bill of rights for the UK, these will still apply, as will precedents already passed down to UK courts from Brussels.

You are not voting to kick anyone out of the UK or block access to anyone. Neither are you voting to stop recruiting valuable European workers into things like the NHS. Like my other point about passports for travel, the UK is already outside of the Schengen zone and so migrant workers must enter the UK with a valid passport before and after June 23rd. That will not change. British borders maintain full control of who comes and goes. Should someone have the skills to apply to work in the NHS, then they will still be permitted travel and given an opportunity to apply for a job. Worst case, points based assessment, like the US, Canada and Australia use, will come into effect. The UK is likely to negotiate freedom of labour movement though, in exchange for freedom of goods movement.

You are not voting to move jobs nor production out of the UK! The EU actually helped fund the move of Ford Transit production from the UK to Turkey... Yes, the EU helped give UK jobs to people in Turkey by giving Ford a loan of £80m with very generous terms!

What you are voting for is UK sovereignty. You are voting to stay in or leave a political union of leaders and representatives that you British people did not elect. You are voting against a commission of unelected, elite men that nobody at all voted for and yet they make decisions on our behalf. You are simply voting to bring sovereignty back to Westminster, and that is all. If you worry about that because you don't like the Conservative government, look at the reality. Their majority in parliament is very slim. They have been blocked on big decisions already. You are therefore not giving sovereignty to David Cameron, but to the UK House of elected representatives. Do not be fooled by the fear campaigns that are simply run by the wealthy, who need EU money to thrive! Think about the future, and your family's future."

Hope this helps :unsure:

How exactly do you think your life is going to improve if there is a Brexit Bunbury?

What miw said ...far more articulate than I could put it ...its all there ...

hopefully you should add, because the out vote is for the unknown

I came across this which might help those who are unsure. It's a bit long but worth reading:

On June 23rd we have the chance to vote to return the decision making for our country's future to the British people and not some foreign politician that you have not chosen to represent you ?..

 

People want to know the facts. Here are some....."

Hope this helps :unsure:

Is there a version of this with referenced sources to the facts claimed?

hopefully you should add, because the out vote is for the unknown

The in vote is also for the unknown. Anything in the future is the unknown. You have no idea what EU will force upon the UK in the future.

Is there a version of this with referenced sources to the facts claimed?

Right back at you. Are you suggesting that the vote *is* about leaving WTO, NATO, UN, G8, G20? If so can you provide some evidence. Are you suggesting that the vote is about not recognising Interpol? Do you believe MI6 will stop cooperating with other agencies in the world? Could we get some evidence of this if so, thank you. I could go on but you get the just.

Whilst you are digging out those proofs, could you dig out a few other proofs: that the currency will collapse, that everybody in the world will stop trading with UK, that the economy will collapse, that price of grocery shopping will go up, that ISIS will take over London, that mortgage rates will rise, that climate change will be accelerated, that there will be more pollution, that the environment and wildlife will be at risk. These are just a few things I have picked up from my Facebook feed as claims from David Cameron and the remain campaign.

here we go . Unsubscribed

The in vote is also for the unknown. Anything in the future is the unknown. You have no idea what EU will force upon the UK in the future.

 

 

 

 

Right back at you. Are you suggesting that the vote *is* about leaving WTO, NATO, UN, G8, G20? If so can you provide some evidence. Are you suggesting that the vote is about not recognising Interpol? Do you believe MI6 will stop cooperating with other agencies in the world? Could we get some evidence of this if so, thank you. I could go on but you get the just.

 

Whilst you are digging out those proofs, could you dig out a few other proofs: that the currency will collapse, that everybody in the world will stop trading with UK, that the economy will collapse, that price of grocery shopping will go up, that ISIS will take over London, that mortgage rates will rise, that climate change will be accelerated, that there will be more pollution, that the environment and wildlife will be at risk. These are just a few things I have picked up from my Facebook feed as claims from David Cameron and the remain campaign.

I was asking for references to weed out actual facts....otherwise it's just more noise.

Do we really believe with all the supposed savings for the input we put into the EU, should we save all this money of course the government will plough it all into the NHS and build an extra hospital every week. we will still see the money going to the elite. remember the tories have back tracked on near every promise they made to get elected and I even voted for them after the shambles of previous parties. Also we should note we are not voting Gove or Boris into office, we are voting in or out, Cameron for all his posturing will still be PM. To me the vote has come down to immigration verses the PC brigade, no facts just scaremongering and a lot of 'if we leave we COULD this or MIGHT / MAYBE that

hopefully you should add, because the out vote is for the unknown

.....and the vote to remain is to continue with the ongoing and increasing chaos of the EU, the failing economies of many of its members, the inability of its leaders to address the migration crisis, the likelihood of other failing and poorer nations joining and the move towards greater political union etc etc.. Yes, we do know the future if we remain. If we leave there is a chance for the UK to escape the woes of Europe and decide our own destiny. Worth considering too, is that there are other EU members e.g. the Netherlands, France, Sweden who are closely watching what happens as their people too, would really like to leave. It will be a brave new world we enter if we leave but much better to face that challenge and grow than meekly accept the alternative simply for fear of the unknown. What we do know is that we are a strong, surviving nation and there is no reason, if everyone pulls together, that we can't advance way beyond the confines of being in the EU.

"better to regret doing something than to regret not doing it"

I was asking for references to weed out actual facts....otherwise it's just more noise.

No you weren't. You were just trying to deflect from a rational debate you had no answer to by a childish "prove it".

It is pretty hard to prove something which is never in question, I can't prove that giraffes can't speak Arabic (to quote a member if this forum) it diesnt mean that giraffes can speak Arabic. If you think that the Leave vote means leaving WTO, NATO, G8, G20, that it means that MI6 will stop working with other agencies then you prove it.

What's the point in arguing about politics? (or religion for that matter). No one has hardly ever convinced anyone to change their minds.

Makes me laugh :laugh:

hopefully you should add, because the out vote is for the unknown

You are right Lego ,very much into the unknown .

Lets hope Britain decides to rock the boat ....

These shadowy figures ,this global elite ,these massive corporations are running the show .

The worlds leaders are just puppets .

We the people are becoming poorer ,and they don't give a **** .

People to open their eyes .

The conflicts across the world ,who orchestrating it all .

Take for example the middle east .

Get rid of Saddam ,ghaddaffi ,Mubarak and it would have been Assad ,but the Russians have stepped in .

Is the fall out and crisis an accident or designed ?

Surely the powers tbat be ,are not that stupid and short sighted ? ...probably not .

I have said from day one on this board ,australias saving grace will be its geography not its economy ..

On many levels ,we have to leave the e.u .

I heard something yesterday that thatcher was removed from office ,because she rocked the boat ,and replaced by one of their own john major .

Lo and behold ,out comes john major yesterday ,having a go at the " out" campaign ,in a very unmajor like way .

It seems the powers that be are desperate to keep us IN ...not just passionate ,but desperate ..the jobs and economy will eventually come back if we leave

So what is the real worry ?

You are right Lego ,very much into the unknown .

Lets hope Britain decides to rock the boat ....

These shadowy figures ,this global elite ,these massive corporations are running the show .

The worlds leaders are just puppets .

We the people are becoming poorer ,and they don't give a **** .

 

People to open their eyes .

The conflicts across the world ,who orchestrating it all .

Take for example the middle east .

Get rid of Saddam ,ghaddaffi ,Mubarak and it would have been Assad ,but the Russians have stepped in .

 

Is the fall out and crisis an accident or designed ?

 

Surely the powers tbat be ,are not that stupid and short sighted ? ...probably not .

 

I have said from day one on this board ,australias saving grace will be its geography not its economy ..

 

On many levels ,we have to leave the e.u .

 

I heard something yesterday that thatcher was removed from office ,because she rocked the boat ,and replaced by one of their own john major .

 

Lo and behold ,out comes john major yesterday ,having a go at the " out" campaign ,in a very unmajor like way .

 

It seems the powers that be are desperate to keep us IN ...not just passionate ,but desperate ..the jobs and economy will eventually come back if we leave

So what is the real worry ?

P.s there are some very bright and articulate people on this board .

I just ask people of all persuasions to have a look at the big picture .

For those of you on the left of the political persuasion ,I think you are being " mugged " off .

The 1% are getting richer by the day ,and the average Joe is getting poorer

More billionaires were created during the so called recession.

In my humble opinion the e.u is like fifa with 5 sepp blatters at the helm ,except we don't know who the 5 are ( without looking it up ).

Its a failed project to me ...time to leave ..fingers crossed .

The facts are we pay in £20 billion a year ..

And receive up to £10 billion back ...but that is not cast in stone ,it could be £2 billion next year if Greece ,and Italy hit the wall further .

BRITAIN WE ARE IN THE LAST CHANCE SALOON ....ONE LAST CHANCE ...TIME TO LEAVE

The in vote is also for the unknown. Anything in the future is the unknown. You have no idea what EU will force upon the UK in the future.

 

 

 

 

Right back at you. Are you suggesting that the vote *is* about leaving WTO, NATO, UN, G8, G20? If so can you provide jsome evidence. Are you suggesting that the vote is about not recognising Interpol? Do you believe MI6 will stop cooperating with other agencies in the world? Could we get some evidence of this if so, thank you. I could go on but you get the just.

 

Whilst you are digging out those proofs, could you dig out a few other proofs: that the currency will collapse, that everybody in the world will stop trading with UK, that the economy will collapse, that price of grocery shopping will go up, that ISIS will take over London, that mortgage rates will rise, that climate change will be accelerated, that there will be more pollution, that the environment and wildlife will be at risk. These are just a few things I have picked up from my Facebook feed as claims from David Cameron and the remain campaign.

The out campaign is using figures which have been shown to be incorrect by the ONS, the whole of the out campaign is predicated on the members of the EU being nicey, nicey to us after we exit, does that seem likely given that we have demanded endless get out clauses over the years and refused to join the Euro and also probably caused another financial crisis across Europe and possibly the World.

I expect that we will be frozen out of the EU market with tariffs and visa requirements and customs controls on everything and everybody entering and leaving: the multinational finance firms have already got contingency plans to move their businesses to Europe, once that happens the UK 's access to finance will take a nosedive and how long before all those remaining manufacturing jobs are suddenly transferred to Italy or Spain where labour and land is cheap and there is no Channel to cross.

As far as doing trade deals with the rest of the world that will take 3,4,5, years to sort out and as far as getting a deal with Europe the only way we will get that is if we pay into the EU again and accept their rules once more and I can't see the EU lining up to facilitate that after we have just stuck 2 fingers up to them, in all honesty would you think that is going to be at all likely.

The exiteers will have all the sovereignty they want , they can play dress - up in the Lords and have Queenie doing her grand tours round the Commonwealth but it might all look a bit tawdry with roads full of holes and even bigger swathes of the UK looking like the mining towns after Maggie shut the pits.

Our trade is with Europe, to think we can overnight replace that market with the Commonwealth , Sth America and the USA is simply laughable, the EU maybe for the big boys but as they employ most of everyone now there is a reality that Capital is mobile, workforces are not so it will be the workers who will get it in the b**ls just so that Boris can be prime minister of the newest banana republic.

Those in favour of leaving suspect the motives of all those that are speaking out that the UK should Remain part of the EU. Yet all those speaking out to Leave are plucky underdogs speaking on behalf of the downtrodden in Britain.

Anybody thinking you will wake up the day after a vote to leave the EU and it will be business as usual (with the added benefit of border control, a fairer deal for the working man, one in the eye for the fat cats, and a net saving of EU contributions) is deluded, frankly. Disentangling the UK legislature from the EU is a can of worms which will keep lawyers and legislators tied up in knots earning huge fees for many many years to come.

Cameron would be a dead man walking as PM and the path would be clear for Johnson to lead a party which would be so disunited that it would struggle to govern at all.

Meanwhile much inward investment will dry up and the long term implications for the UK economy are incalculable. And it will hurt the EU too for sure which will be scant comfort. If, as expected, the Scottish electorate vote overwhelmingly to Remain then the call for a new independence referendum will be difficult to resist piling more uncertainty on top of uncertainty.

The EU has plenty of faults which makes it a tough one to fight a platform on but it is certainly the least worst option. Voting for the least worst option is not a great clarion call which is why I suspect that more voters will decide to vote Leave. I am relieved to have moved much of my capital out and not going to be there.

Be careful what you wish for.....and best of luck. It will be needed.

No you weren't. You were just trying to deflect from a rational debate you had no answer to by a childish "prove it".

 

Far from it. I am actively seeking facts on both sides of the debate and trying to filter out the noise.

The one particular "fact" I am trying to get my head around is the £350m per week net contribution. My understanding is that we get approx. 2/3rds back (in one form or another), so surely that number is factually incorrect??

Most will go to areas that aren't the natural patronage of the Tory right, and if you believe that this will go back into the NHS under the leadership of Boris, IDS and Gove then this would be laughable - this would translate into tax cuts for the rich. I am normally a Tory voter, but watching John Major on Andrew Marr at the weekend you could see his anger and upset at this particular misrepresentation, I find myself coming into this camp.

I have resigned from work to move to Australia, but I am very clear that my role would be moved out of the UK in the event of a Brexit, and indeed the recruitment of my replacement has been delayed until the end of June for "system reasons". I genuinely believe that the jobs created by leaving will not offset those that currently exist to service trade with the EU, but won't grab a number out of the air to support my position :wink:

I will be voting in - my children are British Citizens and am voting for their future if they wish to return to a great nation within the EU.

P.s there are some very bright and articulate people on this board .

I just ask people of all persuasions to have a look at the big picture .

For those of you on the left of the political persuasion ,I think you are being " mugged " off .

 

The 1% are getting richer by the day ,and the average Joe is getting poorer

More billionaires were created during the so called recession.

In my humble opinion the e.u is like fifa with 5 sepp blatters at the helm ,except we don't know who the 5 are ( without looking it up ).

 

Its a failed project to me ...time to leave ..fingers crossed .

 

The facts are we pay in £20 billion a year ..

And receive up to £10 billion back ...but that is not cast in stone ,it could be £2 billion next year if Greece ,and Italy hit the wall further .

 

BRITAIN WE ARE IN THE LAST CHANCE SALOON ....ONE LAST CHANCE ...TIME TO LEAVE

If you think that the Tories are going to reverse that process then you really are deluded, the Tories have been actively encouraging all of the inequality, do you think they are suddenly going to become the party that has the interests of the little man at the heart of their policies, NO it's going to be the multi millionaire buddies from Eton, Oxbridge and the middle east oil states and the crooks with Russian Roubles to stash in London property.