Calls for major overhaul of 457 417 and 462 visa programs

[Sina]

The report has 33 recommendations, which call for more data to made available about the amount of temporary workers in Australia and how long they have been here.

 

See: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-17/senate-inquiry-temporary-workers/7250158

[flag of convenience]

The issue around temporary workers, now making up 10% of Australia's working population, requires serious attention.

[BELAW]

The issue around temporary workers, now making up 10% of Australia's working population, requires serious attention.

 

Ten?

 

 

From http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/rp/rp1314/QG/Subclass457Visa :

 

[h=3]How many actually use the program?[/h]The number of subclass 457 visa holders in Australia on 30 September 2013 totalled 196,450. Of these, primary subclass 457 visa holders totalled 110,280. Primary 457 visa holders equate to almost one per cent of the total Australian labour force.

[Suzukiscottie]

Ten?

 

 

From http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/rp/rp1314/QG/Subclass457Visa :

 

How many actually use the program?

 

The number of subclass 457 visa holders in Australia on 30 September 2013 totalled 196,450. Of these, primary subclass 457 visa holders totalled 110,280. Primary 457 visa holders equate to almost one per cent of the total Australian labour force.

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-23/fact-check-457-workers/7232258

 

And some figures from January 2016.

 

"Senator Cash's claim that 457 workers account for less than one per cent of Australia's workforce is correct.

 

The most recent data at the time the claim was made indicates 457 workers comprised 0.84 per cent of the workforce in January 2016."

[flag of convenience]

Ten?

 

 

From http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/rp/rp1314/QG/Subclass457Visa :

 

How many actually use the program?

 

The number of subclass 457 visa holders in Australia on 30 September 2013 totalled 196,450. Of these, primary subclass 457 visa holders totalled 110,280. Primary 457 visa holders equate to almost one per cent of the total Australian labour force.

 

I take it your decision to respond on this occasion is due to the fact you consider you are on to something?

 

Yes 10% of the work force which amounts to 1.8 million temporary visa holder in Australia.

 

Just to give you an idea.......

 

Bridging Visa Holders.............111,173

 

NZ Subclass 444....................648,998

 

Study with working rights........413,123

 

Temporally Skilled 457.............193, 158

 

Temporally Graduate................23,026

 

WHV.......................................160,275

 

Others.......................................36,367

 

TOTAL .......................................1,871, 651

 

SOURCE Australian Govt Depts, Submission 41, Attachment B, Table 4, Page 21.

 

Sometimes we need to dig a little deeper to get the real truth. Any way well over subscribed and action urgently required to uphold Australian jobs from excessive unneeded exploitation.

[flag of convenience]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-23/fact-check-457-workers/7232258

 

And some figures from January 2016.

 

"Senator Cash's claim that 457 workers account for less than one per cent of Australia's workforce is correct.

 

The most recent data at the time the claim was made indicates 457 workers comprised 0.84 per cent of the workforce in January 2016."

 

We need to look at a broader picture here but also take into account the exploitation of increasing numbers of foreign workers being brought in as well as home based procedures in place as well ....

[Diane]

Also for every 'primary visa holder' there are accompanying family members - wife, working young adult children etc - that need to be taken into account when talking about any figures.

[Suzukiscottie]

Also for every 'primary visa holder' there are accompanying family members - wife, working young adult children etc - that need to be taken into account when talking about any figures.

 

Already accounted for in the quoted articles. Currently just under 200,000 457 visa holders. Trending downwards for several years.

 

Edited April 1, 2016 by Suzukiscottie

[BELAW]

I take it your decision to respond on this occasion is due to the fact you consider you are on to something?

 

No actually; I just found the 10% figure not credible and thought the decimal may be at the wrong spot.

I realise in the internet world it's easy to assume that disagreeing comments might carry an intention to wrestle (and surely, they often do indeed), but I promise I have no such intentions.

 

Yes 10% of the work force which amounts to 1.8 million temporary visa holder in Australia.

 

I take any kind of statistic with a large pinch of salt, for knowing how easy it is to skew them and declare whatever result you want to.

Honestly, I can not imagine that 10% of Australia's work force would be on temporary visas. For example:

 

Out of the total 1.8m quoted, I can see in the original table that 285k are on visitor visas - now we're down to less than 1.6m. Plus I would never include the 444 holders in this: nobody will ever consider reforming the full temp visa framework in a way to exclude Kiwis. Now we're down to 930k. And out of those there would be a fair few mothers outside the work force raising children. Even better: there would be heaps of children themselves! All the Japanese 571 holder kids going to school here in Cairns, and their 580 holder mothers...

 

Not to mention that the general 570-572-573 student visa holders (over 1/4 million) are hardly taking the jobs of Aussies.

Sure, they can serve food at the café 4 hours a day, but their language skills, work limitations and availability for the long term presents no risk to my job for example.

 

Anyways, long story short: I didn't write to challenge you or prove you wrong, but I have my own observations about the job market and the risk temporary visa holders present, and I thought you must have meant 1% maybe.

 

Sometimes we need to dig a little deeper to get the real truth. Any way well over subscribed and action urgently required to uphold Australian jobs from excessive unneeded exploitation.

 

I don't strictly believe in such a thing as "the truth", rather I believe the truth is most often subjective.

 

Right here, before my eyes, the greatest risk I can see for Australian jobs is that a lot of kids finish school without ever having heard criticism; no matter how bad you do nowadays, the current trend in education is encouragement. Then they come out of school thinking the world should be grateful if they're willing to sacrifice a portion of their precious time and attention to your business. No young person strives to be a good/hard worker, we don't raise enthusiastic trades workers, instead they expect to be millionaires straight out of school with the minimum effort possible. And as long as that's the case, there will always be a diligent Korean wall and floor tiler who isn't turned off by hard work and appreciates the level of Australian wages...<rant off>

 

That's my subjective truth.

Edited April 1, 2016 by BELAW

[VERYSTORMY]

The reality is though, every single day on the forums, I see 457's that raise my eyebrows.

 

For example, today I came across some one in recruitment offered a 457 for a Perth job. I know a lot of recruiters in Perth and most have been laid off in recent months. So, I can not think of any possible reason for it.

[flag of convenience]

No actually; I just found the 10% figure not credible and thought the decimal may be at the wrong spot.

I realise in the internet world it's easy to assume that disagreeing comments might carry an intention to wrestle (and surely, they often do indeed), but I promise I have no such intentions.

 

 

 

I take any kind of statistic with a large pinch of salt, for knowing how easy it is to skew them and declare whatever result you want to.

Honestly, I can not imagine that 10% of Australia's work force would be on temporary visas. For example:

 

Out of the total 1.8m quoted, I can see in the original table that 285k are on visitor visas - now we're down to less than 1.6m. Plus I would never include the 444 holders in this: nobody will ever consider reforming the full temp visa framework in a way to exclude Kiwis. Now we're down to 930k. And out of those there would be a fair few mothers outside the work force raising children. Even better: there would be heaps of children themselves! All the Japanese 571 holder kids going to school here in Cairns, and their 580 holder mothers...

 

Not to mention that the general 570-572-573 student visa holders (over 1/4 million) are hardly taking the jobs of Aussies.

Sure, they can serve food at the café 4 hours a day, but their language skills, work limitations and availability for the long term presents no risk to my job for example.

 

Anyways, long story short: I didn't write to challenge you or prove you wrong, but I have my own observations about the job market and the risk temporary visa holders present, and I thought you must have meant 1% maybe.

 

 

 

I don't strictly believe in such a thing as "the truth", rather I believe the truth is most often subjective.

 

Right here, before my eyes, the greatest risk I can see for Australian jobs is that a lot of kids finish school without ever having heard criticism; no matter how bad you do nowadays, the current trend in education is encouragement. Then they come out of school thinking the world should be grateful if they're willing to sacrifice a portion of their precious time and attention to your business. No young person strives to be a good/hard worker, we don't raise enthusiastic trades workers, instead they expect to be millionaires straight out of school with the minimum effort possible. And as long as that's the case, there will always be a diligent Korean wall and floor tiler who isn't turned off by hard work and appreciates the level of Australian wages...<rant off>

 

That's my subjective truth.

 

Well there is nothing subjective about Recommendations 7 & 8 & 9 of the Committee findings.

 

Rec 7..... That the replacement of LOCAL WORKERS by 457 visa workers be specifically PROHIBITED.

 

Rec 8....... Current NON MARKERT TRESTING of labour be Removed...

 

Rec 9 .......Migration regs be amended to specify that LABOUR TESTING applies to all positions nominated by approved sponsors under labour agreements and Designated Area Migration Agreements.....

 

 

Rather common sense nothing subjective. Just for starters.

[flag of convenience]

The reality is though, every single day on the forums, I see 457's that raise my eyebrows.

 

For example, today I came across some one in recruitment offered a 457 for a Perth job. I know a lot of recruiters in Perth and most have been laid off in recent months. So, I can not think of any possible reason for it.

 

The reality includes growing exploitation of both 457 and Back Packer labour.....as well. The reasons for the above are not hard to guess.

[BELAW]

Well there is nothing subjective about Recommendations 7 & 8 & 9 of the Committee findings.

 

Rec 7..... That the replacement of LOCAL WORKERS by 457 visa workers be specifically PROHIBITED.

Rec 8....... Current NON MARKERT TRESTING of labour be Removed...

Rec 9 .......Migration regs be amended to specify that LABOUR TESTING applies to all positions nominated by approved sponsors under labour agreements and Designated Area Migration Agreements.....

 

Rather common sense nothing subjective. Just for starters.

 

I honestly wasn't looking for a fight but I can't help feeling you might be. I'm not sure you're reading my comments for what they are - instead maybe through some filter of bias? Maybe I angered you with something?

 

You won't find any mention of me ever saying I disagreed with those recommendations. I welcome those recommendations. Not the whole report in its entirety, especially the phrasing about the TSMIT vs AWOTE which I found confusing and easy to misinterpret, but for example the above 3 recommendations haven't come up in our conversations and I never said I disagreed.

 

However, that won't change my general conviction about truth being subjective. That idea is beautifully demonstrated at parliament every day (if truth was a single and universal thing, there could never be two sides arguing for opposite interpretation) plus substantiated by events like the annexation of Iraq et al.

 

People proclaim all kinds of "truth" then use whatever data to justify it - but that does not make it truth in my view. This all is beside the point though - I don't think this is the appropriate forum to discuss our personal beliefs and world view so I will self-moderate and "Mic Drop".

[flag of convenience]

Well there is nothing subjective about Recommendations 7 & 8 & 9 of the Committee findings.

 

Rec 7..... That the replacement of LOCAL WORKERS by 457 visa workers be specifically PROHIBITED.

 

Rec 8....... Current NON MARKERT TRESTING of labour be Removed...

 

Rec 9 .......Migration regs be amended to specify that LABOUR TESTING applies to all positions nominated by approved sponsors under labour agreements and Designated Area Migration Agreements.....

 

 

Rather common sense nothing subjective. Just for starters.

 

Tourist visas are obviously not included. Working Holiday Visas are.

[flag of convenience]

I honestly wasn't looking for a fight but I can't help feeling you might be. I'm not sure you're reading my comments for what they are - instead maybe through some filter of bias? Maybe I angered you with something?

 

You won't find any mention of me ever saying I disagreed with those recommendations. I welcome those recommendations. Not the whole report in its entirety, especially the phrasing about the TSMIT vs AWOTE which I found confusing and easy to misinterpret, but for example the above 3 recommendations haven't come up in our conversations and I never said I disagreed.

 

However, that won't change my general conviction about truth being subjective. That idea is beautifully demonstrated at parliament every day (if truth was a single and universal thing, there could never be two sides arguing for opposite interpretation) plus substantiated by events like the annexation of Iraq et al.

 

People proclaim all kinds of "truth" then use whatever data to justify it - but that does not make it truth in my view. This all is beside the point though - I don't think this is the appropriate forum to discuss our personal beliefs and world view so I will self-moderate and "Mic Drop".

 

Me looking for a fight, not really but not bothered either way. The facts speak for themselves. I don't read a single word from the above or other posts , that would convince me that the findings of the Committee are anything but long over due and in earnest of implementation.

[Raul Senise]

If you have been in the Immigration Industry long enough you will see the pattern that the subclass 457 debate always rages around election time. This is because it is a soft target which can be demonized by reporting on the minority who try to exploit the system. It is also very emotive and “facts and statistics” can be easily manipulated (by both sides).

 

Monitoring by Immigration actually shows that the vast majority of companies sponsoring under the subclass 457 visa program are compliant with their obligations and doing the right thing.

 

The reality is that the subclass 457 program has been very successful in achieving its objectives.

 

There are other visa programs which should be highlighted and looked at but are not for political reasons and because they are not as emotive as the subclass 457 program.

[BELAW]

If you have been in the Immigration Industry long enough you will see the pattern that the subclass 457 debate always rages around election time. This is because it is a soft target which can be demonized by reporting on the minority who try to exploit the system. It is also very emotive and “facts and statistics” can be easily manipulated (by both sides).

 

The voice of reason; thank you Raul. Calm, logical and non-inflammatory. :-)

(And though my MARN starts with 14, I've actually been a migration clerk for 5 years before that. Hoping to spend many more decades doing what I do now - helping worthy applicants become grateful Australians, and lending a hand to those sponsoring employers who would otherwise struggle.)

[DianaK]

I personally find the Study with working rights subclass the biggest scam in this country.

[MaggieMay24]

No visa subclass is immune to some scams, it just seems the WHV and 457 get the most media attention. I have no issue with the programs if it allows honest people to come into the country, contribute financially through paying taxes, etc. There should be more consistent monitoring of employers to ensure the visa holders aren't taken advantage of, but I see these programs as valuable to the growth of the country.

[flag of convenience]

If you have been in the Immigration Industry long enough you will see the pattern that the subclass 457 debate always rages around election time. This is because it is a soft target which can be demonized by reporting on the minority who try to exploit the system. It is also very emotive and “facts and statistics” can be easily manipulated (by both sides).

 

Monitoring by Immigration actually shows that the vast majority of companies sponsoring under the subclass 457 visa program are compliant with their obligations and doing the right thing.

 

The reality is that the subclass 457 program has been very successful in achieving its objectives.

 

There are other visa programs which should be highlighted and looked at but are not for political reasons and because they are not as emotive as the subclass 457 program.

 

The entire visa process requires careful scrutiny. The 457 being a classic example of where this is required and rorts ceased as well as Labour Market Testing reinstalled and enforced. It makes beyond the lowering of conditions,not a lot of point bringing in excess accountants for example when Australian based accountants or newly qualified struggle to obtain employment. The same could be said for nurses and a range of other professions.

 

Little, though perhaps some increased effort, in highlighting this issue prior to an election. I seem to recall this issue gaining traction at least since the declining fortunes of the resource industry. It should in fact become an election issue, along with the type of Australia we want and the sort of city's we desire to live in.

[flag of convenience]

I personally find the Study with working rights subclass the biggest scam in this country.

 

Interesting to note the difference between UK and Australia in this. UK law requires students to leave the country soon after completion of studies, the last time I looked.

[flag of convenience]

No visa subclass is immune to some scams, it just seems the WHV and 457 get the most media attention. I have no issue with the programs if it allows honest people to come into the country, contribute financially through paying taxes, etc. There should be more consistent monitoring of employers to ensure the visa holders aren't taken advantage of, but I see these programs as valuable to the growth of the country.

 

These visa's can indeed be of value providing they are used correctly. They are not in if conflict or competition with those already here. I do not see an over subscription of any profession to be of any value to Australian life, beyond a few employers wanting to possibly exploit the situation. Return the visa to its original intent that being to fill a proved vacancy with a minimum wage attached and I think complaints will dissipate.

[flag of convenience]

The voice of reason; thank you Raul. Calm, logical and non-inflammatory. :-)

(And though my MARN starts with 14, I've actually been a migration clerk for 5 years before that. Hoping to spend many more decades doing what I do now - helping worthy applicants become grateful Australians, and lending a hand to those sponsoring employers who would otherwise struggle.)

 

Not a touch of vested interest in the proceedings either. I applaud the altruism expressed by all business parties concerned.

[Raul Senise]

Not a touch of vested interest in the proceedings either. I applaud the altruism expressed by all business parties concerned.

 

Wow, if I didn't have thick skin I may have taken that sarcastic swipe personally.

 

If I was truly concerned about my supposed “vested interest” I would be barracking for further changes and more turmoil in the subclass 457 program, as I always have much more business during these periods of uncertainty and change.

 

The reality though, is during these periods it is the legitimate applicants and businesses who suffer.

 

The scammers will continue to exploit the system, irrelevant of what changes are put into place.

 

The subclass 457 program has consistently been amended and changed, more than any other program.

 

Irrelevant of what changes are made, the key is efficient and consistent monitoring to punish those who are purposely and knowingly trying to exploit the system, while not hindering the legitimate businesses and applicants who use the program as intended.